Overtraining?

[Mr.MJR]

Hello Coach, is it possible to overtrain with static strength exercises? I train twice a day, about 2h per workout, in the morning and evening. And I noticed that I progress better in exercises which I do less then the exercises which I do very often Is it just temporary, will my body adapt to such stress resulting in strength progression?

I thought that gymnastics is sport with rule "more you train better results you gain" Am I wrong?

Is it good to do for example handstand every training? You said in the book that you were doing half hour XR handstand every day.

I have lot of motivation to train, but I am scared about overtraining, can you please explain me that problem?

Thanks in advance!

[trianglechoke7]

Are you a gymnast or are you new to this type of training?

Yes, you can over train doing static exercises. If you are just a regular person that is new to this training, you are training FAR FAR FAR too much.

Coaches training, or the training of gymnasts is not something that you should try to emulate. Coach built up the work capacity to do 30 minutes of handstands everyday on top of everything else.

If you are new to all this, the amount of training you are doing is not only unnecessary but counter productive. You should do the least amount of work necessary to progress. Be like the turtle, not the hare.

A beginner can progress on as little as 2 sessions per week, per muscle group, with 2-3 sets.

If we are talking about static exercises, no more than 60 total seconds is needed, a couple times per week.

I would suggest that you scale down to a minimalist program, or just follow Coaches WOD's. Search for killroys program. This is another simple beginner routine.

[Rampage]

Are you a gymnast or are you new to this type of training?

Yes, you can over train doing static exercises. If you are just a regular person that is new to this training, you are training FAR FAR FAR too much.

Coaches training, or the training of gymnasts is not something that you should try to emulate. Coach built up the work capacity to do 30 minutes of handstands everyday on top of everything else.

If you are new to all this, the amount of training you are doing is not only unnecessary but counter productive. You should do the least amount of work necessary to progress. Be like the turtle, not the hare.

A beginner can progress on as little as 2 sessions per week, per muscle group, with 2-3 sets.

If we are talking about static exercises, no more than 60 total seconds is needed, a couple times per week.

I would suggest that you scale down to a minimalist program, or just follow Coaches WOD's. Search for killroys program. This is another simple beginner routine.

2 times a week? 2-3 sets? I just don't understand how that works.

Let's say all I am training is the planche and the FL. Are you saying that I should only do my planche and FL training 2 days a week, with just 2-3 sets? Won't you take decades to build those skills up with that skimpy amount of training? You probably won't even break a sweat.

[trianglechoke7]

I was referring to regular exercises, not static holds when I said "2-3 sets." Also, I said BEGINNER. 2-3 sets 2 times per week per muscle group will stimulate adaptation (i.e. cause strength gains) in beginners. I didn't say that you could keep doing that for years.

[trianglechoke7]

Also, let me say that I'm not claiming this is the optimal dose response in regards to volume and strength. I'm just trying to put things into perspective. Take someone off the couch and get them to do a few sets a couple times per week and they will adapt for a little while.

I guess I should also say that you don't have to do the very least that will cause gains, if doing more will cause faster gains. But it certainly won't hurt anything for the long term weekend warrior type, and knowing the minimal threshold for adaptation can be useful information for time crunched individuals.

But the main thing that I hope comes out of this convo is the concept of DOSE RESPONSE.



DOING MORE IS NOT NECESSARILY BETTER!

[Blairbob]

I rarely sweat from gymnastics S&C unless it's one of those 4 round GB wod's perhaps in the WU.

Perhaps with ring routine strength sets or lower body conditioning.

[trianglechoke7]

Mr.MJR,

I just noticed that you are gymnast actually training for competitions. So, my comments can be disregarded.

What I will tell you in general is that "more you train the better results you gain" is only true up to a certain point. Look at the dose response curve. There will be an increasing amount of gain with increasing training, then you will hit a point of optimal volume that is appropriate for you genetics and training history, after which more training will result in LESS gain.

What is the optimal amount? I don't personally know. Someone with experience in training gymnasts will have to answer that question for you.

[slizzardman]

Are you a gymnast or are you new to this type of training?

Yes, you can over train doing static exercises. If you are just a regular person that is new to this training, you are training FAR FAR FAR too much.

Coaches training, or the training of gymnasts is not something that you should try to emulate. Coach built up the work capacity to do 30 minutes of handstands everyday on top of everything else.

If you are new to all this, the amount of training you are doing is not only unnecessary but counter productive. You should do the least amount of work necessary to progress. Be like the turtle, not the hare.

A beginner can progress on as little as 2 sessions per week, per muscle group, with 2-3 sets.

If we are talking about static exercises, no more than 60 total seconds is needed, a couple times per week.

I would suggest that you scale down to a minimalist program, or just follow Coaches WOD's. Search for killroys program. This is another simple beginner routine.

2 times a week? 2-3 sets? I just don't understand how that works.

Let's say all I am training is the planche and the FL. Are you saying that I should only do my planche and FL training 2 days a week, with just 2-3 sets? Won't you take decades to build those skills up with that skimpy amount of training? You probably won't even break a sweat.

Yes, you should only train each of them twice a week for most people, and 3x a week at the most.

You are not training to break sweats, you are training to get stronger. One has almost nothing to do with the other.You are straining connective tissues, and they take longer to heal. If you stress them before they are healed, you may end up doing more damage than healing. Even when you're doing dips, you'll notice that your performance will improve faster when you're only doing 2-3 work sets (NOT including warm up sets) twice a week. The harder you work, the more rest you need, so as you get stronger and keep increasing the resistance, you're going to need more rest. Keep in mind that part of the reason gymnasts eventually are able to have 3 hard sessions a week, which if you read Gregor's log you will see is all he can handle (he does active recovery stuff on other days, but not much), is because they first build their strength up, as Coach suggests in the book. Once you're strong enough to hold planches, malteses, crosses, etc, you don't need more strength, you need more work capacity and explosiveness. At that point there is no longer a quest for more strength, but rather for more work capacity. The more work you can handle, the more often you can train, and the more often you can train the faster you improve skill work. NOT STRENGTH WORK, SKILL WORK!

That's how it goes. Every athlete is different, some need to train a certain exercise every 4 days, some need to do it every 3rd day, some need a whole week of rest for that exercise, and some need to do things every other day. There are lots and lots of factors that go into this. Sometimes it's different recovery speeds. Other times it is because some people have more advantageous tendon attachments, which means their muscles are doing less work to produce a given movement than most other people. That means they are doing less damage, so even though they may be doing the same thing as you, and might recover at the same speed on a cellular level, they did less damage than you so they are healed a day earlier. That's just how things go, and those factors are unique to each athlete.

There are some universal truths when it comes to physical training, and the most important one is what Triangle is trying to explain, and doing a pretty good job of in my opinion.

There is a point, and it is much sooner than people think, at which you start getting less back for your investment. This is called the point of diminishing returns.

That means that for every set and every rep you do, you do a certain amount of damage and trigger a certain amount of tissue adaptation. As these sets and reps go on, you reach a point where every rep is doing the same amount of damage but getting less of a response for it. What that means is that you are increasing the amount of time you'll have to rest while no longer getting much of any extra strength response. In the end, you have to take so long to heal that the little bit of extra strength has worn off, so now you're just as strong in your next workout either way.

The difference is that when you stop working at the point of diminishing returns, you may only need to rest for two days. If you go past that, and have to rest for 3, 4, or 5 days before your body has recovered and grown, you have taken longer to get the same strength gains. That's just not a smart way to do things.

The only thing dumber would be to try and stick to a set schedule, like working out every other day, even though you need more rest. Then you are not even close to being healed or having grown stronger, so you end up doing even MORE damage. Now your body has to stop the improvements it was making to go fix the new damage. You keep doing this and you end up overtrained. That's how it happens. People do it all the time and never even realize it.

This applies to competitive gymnasts as well as total beginners. Go ask Gregor if you're doubtful. He's National or International level. He even went to the Worlds this past year! Ask him about these things, and he'll tell you the same thing.

[slizzardman]

I was referring to regular exercises, not static holds when I said "2-3 sets." Also, I said BEGINNER. 2-3 sets 2 times per week per muscle group will stimulate adaptation (i.e. cause strength gains) in beginners. I didn't say that you could keep doing that for years.

While my above post is pretty comprehensive, I do want to point out that it depends on how long your sets are. Even with statics, 3 sets can be plenty I do 15-20 second sets of my statics, and I won't go below 10 seconds. Why? I'm trying to protect my joints. 3 sets of 15-20 seconds is all my body needs to make noticeable improvements from week to week. Hell, I'm working with a 52 lb spot right now on flat tuck planche for 20 seconds, and it's gotten me to where I can hold a locked arm tuck planche with full BW for 5-8 seconds without elbow issues. When I started this a month and a half ago I couldn't even pick myself up off the ground because my elbows were so screwed up.

Some statics you can do more on than others, but you should still keep it under control. In my opinion, and I believe this is outlined in the book, if you can't hold a position for at least 10 seconds in a max hold, you shouldn't be working that position. I know Coach says you should be working 60 seconds total for whatever statics you are working, but if you can only do sets of 5 seconds safely, you are really working hard. You'll find you are better off working 5-7 sets of 5 seconds a few times a week, instead of 12. You start passing the point of diminishing returns when you try to do that many intense sets. You're better off adding a second to one or two sets every other week or so until you're doing 4-6 sets of 10 seconds with perfect form.

As far as non-statics go, I think we can all agree that I'm fairly strong. I'm at least intermediate level, crossing over into advanced in some areas. That's in powerlifting terms as well as what we're doing here. I can do quite a lot of the higher progressions for dynamic work. I'm certainly still a beginner in the planche and manna though! Anyways, I am saying this because what Triangle says is not just for beginners. Even serious advanced powerlifters are not working the same lifts heavy more than twice a week unless they are on some "super supplements" which is a stupid name for hormones, steriods, etc. The hardcore stuff that you really shouldn't be messing with. I've looked at the Westside workouts, even Doggcrapp workouts for bodybuilders. Across the board, no matter how advanced these guys get, they are not working out more than 2-3 times a week for any given lift, and for bodybuilders it's less than that because it takes longer rests to get big, and they aren't doing that many heavy sets. Even with singles, these guys aren't doing more than 5 singles at their workout max weight. Often less.

I work each muscle group twice a week at the most, and never more than once every six days with the same exercises, and I am making stellar progress. I can promise you that while you may be able to do slightly more, depending on factors that I mentioned in my previous post, if you stick to the same basic protocol you will also achieve stellar results. In the end, you'll probably do a number of different things before coming back to this and saying "Geez, I guess this really does give me the most consistent results without overtraining me." And that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that. I did the same thing, as did a large number of other people here. In the end, what we are suggesting here is what will end up giving you the best results.

Best results meaning that you will make consistent progress over the course of your training career, which is hopefully forever. You will not run into overtraining situations or injuries that force you to take time off and start off a few steps behind that goal you barely achieved before getting hurt or so overtrained that you had to rest for a few weeks.

[trianglechoke7]

While my above post is pretty comprehensive, I do want to point out that it depends on how long your sets are. Even with statics, 3 sets can be plenty I do 15-20 second sets of my statics, and I won't go below 10 seconds.

Most definitely.

Anyways, I am saying this because what Triangle says is not just for beginners. I've looked at the Westside workouts, even Doggcrapp workouts for bodybuilders. Across the board, no matter how advanced these guys get, they are not working out more than 2-3 times a week for any given lift,

This is why I was very purposeful in my wording of "muscle groups" as opposed to "exercises/lifts." Intermediate and advanced trainees may only hit their target lifts a couple of times per week or less and even only 2-3 sets per session depending on the specific lift/stage of programming/whatever, but they will still have more volume per muscle group with the addition of assistance lifts.

Just make things clear.

Thanks for the backup!

[Mr.MJR]

Wow guys, thanks!! You really resolved that puzzle for me! It is very reasonable and logic explanation and I believe you are right, I will definitely cut my work. Thanks again!

[nickvb]

wow very useful information.

definitely going to stick to working GHR/SLS once a week on mondays as I don't think my legs can handle twice a week.

[Mr Brady]

Excellent posts triangle and slizzard! This deserves a sticky IMHO!

[Rampage]

I was referring to regular exercises, not static holds when I said "2-3 sets." Also, I said BEGINNER. 2-3 sets 2 times per week per muscle group will stimulate adaptation (i.e. cause strength gains) in beginners. I didn't say that you could keep doing that for years.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Rampage]

Are you a gymnast or are you new to this type of training?

Yes, you can over train doing static exercises. If you are just a regular person that is new to this training, you are training FAR FAR FAR too much.

Coaches training, or the training of gymnasts is not something that you should try to emulate. Coach built up the work capacity to do 30 minutes of handstands everyday on top of everything else.

If you are new to all this, the amount of training you are doing is not only unnecessary but counter productive. You should do the least amount of work necessary to progress. Be like the turtle, not the hare.

A beginner can progress on as little as 2 sessions per week, per muscle group, with 2-3 sets.

If we are talking about static exercises, no more than 60 total seconds is needed, a couple times per week.

I would suggest that you scale down to a minimalist program, or just follow Coaches WOD's. Search for killroys program. This is another simple beginner routine.

2 times a week? 2-3 sets? I just don't understand how that works.

Let's say all I am training is the planche and the FL. Are you saying that I should only do my planche and FL training 2 days a week, with just 2-3 sets? Won't you take decades to build those skills up with that skimpy amount of training? You probably won't even break a sweat.

Yes, you should only train each of them twice a week for most people, and 3x a week at the most.

You are not training to break sweats, you are training to get stronger. One has almost nothing to do with the other.You are straining connective tissues, and they take longer to heal. If you stress them before they are healed, you may end up doing more damage than healing. Even when you're doing dips, you'll notice that your performance will improve faster when you're only doing 2-3 work sets (NOT including warm up sets) twice a week. The harder you work, the more rest you need, so as you get stronger and keep increasing the resistance, you're going to need more rest. Keep in mind that part of the reason gymnasts eventually are able to have 3 hard sessions a week, which if you read Gregor's log you will see is all he can handle (he does active recovery stuff on other days, but not much), is because they first build their strength up, as Coach suggests in the book. Once you're strong enough to hold planches, malteses, crosses, etc, you don't need more strength, you need more work capacity and explosiveness. At that point there is no longer a quest for more strength, but rather for more work capacity. The more work you can handle, the more often you can train, and the more often you can train the faster you improve skill work. NOT STRENGTH WORK, SKILL WORK!

That's how it goes. Every athlete is different, some need to train a certain exercise every 4 days, some need to do it every 3rd day, some need a whole week of rest for that exercise, and some need to do things every other day. There are lots and lots of factors that go into this. Sometimes it's different recovery speeds. Other times it is because some people have more advantageous tendon attachments, which means their muscles are doing less work to produce a given movement than most other people. That means they are doing less damage, so even though they may be doing the same thing as you, and might recover at the same speed on a cellular level, they did less damage than you so they are healed a day earlier. That's just how things go, and those factors are unique to each athlete.

There are some universal truths when it comes to physical training, and the most important one is what Triangle is trying to explain, and doing a pretty good job of in my opinion.

There is a point, and it is much sooner than people think, at which you start getting less back for your investment. This is called the point of diminishing returns.

That means that for every set and every rep you do, you do a certain amount of damage and trigger a certain amount of tissue adaptation. As these sets and reps go on, you reach a point where every rep is doing the same amount of damage but getting less of a response for it. What that means is that you are increasing the amount of time you'll have to rest while no longer getting much of any extra strength response. In the end, you have to take so long to heal that the little bit of extra strength has worn off, so now you're just as strong in your next workout either way.

The difference is that when you stop working at the point of diminishing returns, you may only need to rest for two days. If you go past that, and have to rest for 3, 4, or 5 days before your body has recovered and grown, you have taken longer to get the same strength gains. That's just not a smart way to do things.

The only thing dumber would be to try and stick to a set schedule, like working out every other day, even though you need more rest. Then you are not even close to being healed or having grown stronger, so you end up doing even MORE damage. Now your body has to stop the improvements it was making to go fix the new damage. You keep doing this and you end up overtrained. That's how it happens. People do it all the time and never even realize it.

This applies to competitive gymnasts as well as total beginners. Go ask Gregor if you're doubtful. He's National or International level. He even went to the Worlds this past year! Ask him about these things, and he'll tell you the same thing.

What I meant with "not even breaking a sweat" was going too light or too soft that you won't even feel anything, not literally sweating; 2-3 sets in the whole day 2 times a week wouldn't work for me at all at least.