Locked joints/straight arm strength training - good or bad?

[Andrew Graham]

Hi guys

 

I have an anatomy exam coming up which consists of joint, bone and ligament palpations and gym training. I have heard from a couple of the guys who have taken the exam last year that if i condone an exercise with a fully locked joint,e.g like the end phase of a pull up (hanging with fully locked elbows) i will fail!! What i am saying is, even though i know that straight arm strength training is an essential for gymnasts and has incredible benefits, i need to be able to explain the science behind it.

 

so here are my questions:

 

1. How exactly does straight arm training and eccentric loading of a muscle (planche hold and lowering phase of a bicep curl) target the biceps tendon more than a concentric movement (bicep curl) ??

 

2. When it comes to doing straight arm strength training, how big is the danger of wear and tear on the joint capsule??

 

I'm sure this is gona be an easy and probably obvious one to answer, but outside opinions are what make this forum an awesome site.

 

Cheers all

 

 

[Larry Roseman]

I would write down the answer they want to hear, if you know what it is already. It's not worth wrecking your

GPA over a few degrees of joint angle.

[George Launchbury]

I agree with Future.

 

A few years back I had to write incorrect answers on a basic ITEC Anatomy, Physiology & Massage exam. I knew the textbook they made us use was wrong, and that was what the marking would be based upon. Can't remember exactly what it was, but it irked me somewhat at the time.

 

Got a great result, and I knew the correct answer - so win/win for me!

 

Cheers,

George.

[Joshua Slocum]

Also echoing the above advice. Exams are not the place to bring up disputes over the material. Write what you know they want to see. 

[Philip Chubb]

This is the reason I wasn't able to go to school anymore. I got tired of writing things that weren't true.

[Andrew Graham]

Ok, you guys have slightly missed the point of my question here......First of all it's a practical exam so there's no written work at all. And like you said i will most likely demonstrate the exercise as described and as recommended. BUT, as a student of the BtGB book and training system, i would like to know how straight arm strengthening and specific exercises that target tendons to condition them actually work. I wasn't asking advice on whether i should answer their questions the way they want me to or not. Plus, I can answer the question however i want to, as long as i back it up with scientific reasoning and references.

[seiyafan]

Well in a straight arm exercise like planche, tendons are under stress 100% of the time, but in a curl, only the beginning part is stressful. Think of a vector, the magnitude of its vertical and horizontal components varies when the vector changes its direction. 

[Larry Roseman]

  On 3/22/2013 at 8:56 PM, seiyafan said:

Well in a straight arm exercise like planche, tendons are under stress 100% of the time, but in a curl, only the beginning part is stressful. Think of a vector, the magnitude of its vertical and horizontal components varies when the vector changes its direction. 

Do you mean under stress 100% of the time or under 100% stress?

 

Would think if the tendon is the only point the muscle attaches to the bone, all bodyweight goes through it regardless of the angle. But i there are multiple tendons crossing the joint, at different points in a motion different tendons become involved to varying extents. It's probably more complicated than this though.

 

The reason Ive heard trainers advise against full hangs is because then the ligaments are holding all the bodyweight, which can lead to their stretching and joints becoming unstable. I don't know if this is a myth or if it's a real concern...

[Andrew Graham]

1.It makes sense that the tendon would come under more stress when the muscle is fully extended and has eccentric loading in an isometric fashion. (This also promotes PNF stretching) I just wanted someone to explain what is actually happening within the body. Tendon and ligaments have 1/10 of the healing/remodelling capacity of a skeletal muscle tissue. So for example, if it takes 4 days for muscle tissue to heal...it takes 40 days for tendons and ligaments to do the same.

 

2. It's impossible for the ligaments to be the only tissues holding the joints together in a dead hang or in any movement for that matter....your wrist flexors,shoulder stabilizers, biceps, biceps radialis are all firing to secure and protect the arms and shoulder girdle. And if you think about it, even with the joints locked, there is no extra force going through the joint...unless u r deliberately pushing your arms into hyper-extension.

 

If anyone could provide a scientific/physiological based answer as to what happens and why straight arm training directly strengthens tendons over muscles, that would be great!......(SLIZZ OR COACH WHERE ARE YOU?? )

[seiyafan]

  On 3/22/2013 at 9:24 PM, FutureisNow said:

Do you mean under stress 100% of the time or under 100% stress?

100% of the time because it's static.

[Larry Roseman]

I think it also trains muscles in disadvantaged positions, fully lengthened and antagonists fully contracted.

That is not when they are naturally strongest. 

 

I do think you are overlooking the ligament issue though. It is possible to "let your muscles go" and just hang

without them being engaged as well....

 

What ever answer you use, make sure you understand the rationale fully since you may have to defend your position.

[Andrew Graham]

I totally agree it is possible to 'let your muscles go'...but even if you did this in a slightly bent end phase position in a dead hang your joints would lock out with even more force than if you happen to 'let go' in a fully locked out position. However, the body won't naturally let go like that unless you neurologically train it to. The muscle contraction keeps the joints compact and supported. So, i don't think it's relevant, i think anyone who is sensible would not 'let go' like that in the first place...It just encourages bad firing patterns in the body.

[Nic Branson]

I have not answered as the research you're looking for is out there, the principle in essence is pretty simple.

Saying the static puts it under stress 100% of the time is false. Even in motion the entire structure is stressed.

I will counter with the question of comparing force levels in concentric vs isometric, time under tension of isometric to eccentric. Also keep in mind the effect of muscle spindle and GTO while there is no motion.

The concern become increased injury risk without proper conditioning. This could be a reason the answer is not acceptable. I sounds like you're in an undergrad class. The acceptable answers there vs the masters level are sometimes different.

Being an exam just write a passing one and get past it. Bachelors level is not where the real thinking take place.

NOTE: I will not typically answer these myself as it is beyond the scope of our general forums and I don't want people getting bogged down in the science.

[Chris Aldersley]

Can we have a science section or topic for those working/studying in the field to discuss things like this?

[Aaro Helander]

I distantly remember Coach saying in his first articles/interview that there is no exact understanding on why Gymnastic Strength Training™ provides so vast strength development

 

Waiting for Josh to answer this topic!

[David McManamon]

I find straight arm strength rather fascinating and would love a detailed technical description of the joint stress and what is going bio-mechanically as a person develops locked arm strength.  How much more stress shifts to the joint when the arms are locked in a move such as a pull-up or hand-stand?  Bent arm the muscle and joint share the load but locked arm allows the muscle to relax to a degree and the skeletal system and joint accepts more tension, how much I don't know.  I credit the combination of locked arm strength training and static holds as the primary reason gymnasts (and myself) far out-perform our peers in the gym yet I understand neither.

 

As a side note the test is correct, without proper joint preparation you should not load the joint in a locked arm position.  Most people never train locked arm strength so until you evaluate their abilities you can't start asking them to lock out their arms in anything more challenging than a push-up.

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't have the time to give a proper response.

 

I do not think it is a good idea to try and justify straight arm training in a practical exam. You're going to butt your head up against a brick wall.

[Redwan Haque]

You could try asking user eshlow on reddit/r/bodyweightfitness for a technical answer.

[Connor Davies]

  On 4/11/2013 at 12:25 AM, dmcmanam said:

As a side note the test is correct, without proper joint preparation you should not load the joint in a locked arm position.  Most people never train locked arm strength so until you evaluate their abilities you can't start asking them to lock out their arms in anything more challenging than a push-up.

Agree 100%.  How many strong people have you seen try to hold a GST position and crumble at the joints?  I've heard stories of well trained individuals nailing an Iron Cross on their first attempt... For a second.  Then they're on the floor, screaming in pain because their joints can't handle it.  We're trying to build joint integrity here.  It's pretty much the main focus of our training, and the complete opposite of most peoples.

 

I heard somewhere that eccentrics tend to tear up the muscle fibers more, something to do with the muscles being placed under more load lowering slowly and raising explosively...  All I know is slow eccentrics definitely stress your tendons more.

 

Finally, a lot of people tend to jerk around when they do pullups (or anything else) so I wouldn't recommend they fully extend the joints and bounce, that's just asking for trouble.

 

Best of luck in your exam!