Super PPP?

[Brian Li]

Hey guys, I think I just discovered a very advanced variation of the PPP. It is a PPP with the hands placed further behind your hips or COM. To do this your feet would have to be pinned to the wall with something otherwise your feet will lift off.

 

I just discovered this yesterday while trying to find out how PPPs with heels against the wall are harder than regular PPPs. I think my scaps had to be elevated a little to a lot and on some attempts my body was piked depending on how far back I put my hands. Some attempts felt like I had a straight body, but my body may have been piked a little and scaps elevated. Even then with a pike the resistance is much greater than a regular PPP with hands at the COM. I think the difficulty is about equal to or greater than that of a real full planche push-up, but I haven't thoroughly compared it yet.

 

I have been doing them with hands placed a couple inches behind my hips (also my COM) and I think my body was straight with some elevation of the scaps. I think the piking on some reps were because of fatigue or when I put my hands even further pack without falling.

[Jon Douglas]

How do you feel these compared to strict wall PPP or wall maltese pu's?

[Brian Li]

Oh I forgot about wall PPPs and wall PMPs. I just tried them today for the first time and I would have to say that the super PPPs are still harder when done with the hands at least 3 inches behind your hips or COM. These put a lot more torque on the shoulders then regular PPPs with hands under the hips, but the wall PMPs still work the chest harder. These can definitely get harder than full planche push-ups.

 

I would say strict form for these would be trying to not pike or bend at the knees although I think it may be impossible to not do either of those if you put your hands too far back. I found out they can also be done with depressed or slightly elevated scapulae and that the more you elevate the scaps the more easier it gets. The bottom part of the ROM seems to be the hardest as opposed to regular PPPs and I often find that the farther back I put my hands, the less lower I can get. I'm even not sure if these can be done with a straight body with or without a depressed scapulae when you place your hands really far back like 5 inches behind hips.

 

I'm going to mess around more with these to learn more about them and to see how beneficial it could be. You guys might want to give them a try to test it out and give some feedback or analysis of the exercise.

[Jon Douglas]

Sadly with the Monday F2 release that's where my efforts will go for now, but I'll give this a dabbled a bit later too. Sounds interesting, although if its harder than wall maltese pu then its probably out of my league for nos....

[Brian Li]

For the PMP should the hand placement be 2x shoulder width? I looked at the photos in BTGB and the athletes there seem to be using more like 1.5-1.7x shoulder width which I would consider to be a wide arm planche rather than a floor maltese since the body is not low enough to the floor. I used 1.7x shoulder width when doing the wall PMPs and I don't think I can do them with 2x shoulder width grip. I can sort of do straddle or half lay planche push-ups with 1.7x shoulder width grip, but actual 2x shoulder width maltese push-ups would be very very hard and there would be hardly any ROM.

 

So if we are talking about true pseudo wall or real maltese push-ups with 2x shoulder width grip then I think they are harder than the current versions of super PPPs I'm doing, but my form on some of the super PPPs are not perfect and I'm not sure if it's possible to maintain a straight body when the hands are placed even further back so....

[Joshua Naterman]

Overthinking, dude

 

Your hands go at your center of mass. That will be a different width for everyone.

[Brian Li]

Then I was probably piking or elevating the scaps. I will have to film myself to see what is really going on. I based the distance of my hands relative to my hips when I'm lying face down and remembering the position when I get up for the starting position on top. So when I'm off the ground my hands may actually be at my COM, but it's still harder than regular max lean PPPs. I may be be overthinking. 

 

Oh wait, were you actually referring to the maltese push-ups or the super PPPs?

[Joshua Naterman]

The wall variety.

 

The "super PPP" are potentially dangerous, because you're going to get a rapid increase in torque, and it will not be the same throughout the ROM as you probably already know. This will lead your body to automatically seek a safe level of torque, which means you WILL be learning ugly form.

 

Be careful with these. I don't advise that you spend very much time with them. I cannot say whether they are worth anything or not... Just because something is difficult does not always make it useful... barbell squats while standing on swiss balls come to mind with this statement.

[Joshua Slocum]

Overthinking, dude

 

Your hands go at your center of mass. That will be a different width for everyone.

Your hands go just in front of your center of mass. If they were precisely at your center, you'd be balanced on your hands, which is a real maltese, not a pseudo-maltese  

 

This is how I get into a PMP: I lay on the floor with my arms at maltese width (approximately 2x shoulders), then bend my elbows slightly to draw my hands towards my shoulders while maintaining the same shoulder angle. Then I plant my hands and push up. How far you pull your hands towards your shoulders determines how difficult the PMP will be.

[Samuli Jyrkinen]

What is your opinion about feet elevated PPPs? I find them significantly harder.

[Joshua Slocum]

What is your opinion about feet elevated PPPs? I find them significantly harder.

 

That's because they are harder 

My preference is to do them with my feet against a wall. 

[Brian Li]

The wall variety.

 

The "super PPP" are potentially dangerous, because you're going to get a rapid increase in torque, and it will not be the same throughout the ROM as you probably already know. This will lead your body to automatically seek a safe level of torque, which means you WILL be learning ugly form.

 

Be careful with these. I don't advise that you spend very much time with them. I cannot say whether they are worth anything or not... Just because something is difficult does not always make it useful... barbell squats while standing on swiss balls come to mind with this statement.

That's true that everyone's COM is located differently, but I know mines is where the wrists are in line with the top of the hip bone. For the PMP I believe a wider grip like 2x shoulder width should be used to get the body no more than 6 inches above the floor than what the photos in BTGB were showing. Also, Hari made a great point that regular max leaned PPPs actually have the hands just in front of the COM. I kept thinking that they would be at the COM like in a true planche.

 

I will be careful with the "super PPPs". I just got excited about discovering a very difficult exercise and will just play around with it occasionally. It's true that it's very hard to keep strict form with these and I'm not sure if it's possible to keep a straight body when hands are placed like say 5+ inches behind the COM from a physics standpoint. It makes you want to pike or bend at the knees and I think elevate the scapulae too sometimes. I think I have managed some straight body reps with hands 2-3 inches behind my COM before. The torque on the shoulders are immense especially at the lower parts.

 

Does piking on these reduce the amount of torque or just distributes less weight on the upper body?

[Brian Li]

What is your opinion about feet elevated PPPs? I find them significantly harder.

Harder than "super PPPs" or regular non elevated PPPs? It's definitely not harder than "super PPPs" and definitely harder than regular PPPs. It's also easier than wall PPPs and can act as an intermediate step between regular PPPs and wall PPPs.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's true that everyone's COM is located differently, but I know mines is where the wrists are in line with the top of the hip bone. For the PMP I believe a wider grip like 2x shoulder width should be used to get the body no more than 6 inches above the floor than what the photos in BTGB were showing. Also, Hari made a great point that regular max leaned PPPs actually have the hands just in front of the COM. I kept thinking that they would be at the COM like in a true planche.

 

I will be careful with the "super PPPs". I just got excited about discovering a very difficult exercise and will just play around with it occasionally. It's true that it's very hard to keep strict form with these and I'm not sure if it's possible to keep a straight body when hands are placed like say 5+ inches behind the COM from a physics standpoint. It makes you want to pike or bend at the knees and I think elevate the scapulae too sometimes. I think I have managed some straight body reps with hands 2-3 inches behind my COM before. The torque on the shoulders are immense especially at the lower parts.

 

Does piking on these reduce the amount of torque or just distributes less weight on the upper body?

Hari did make a good point

 

Nothing on your body changes weight, but the lever lengths change when you elevate the scapula or pike at the hips, as well as the angles of force application, and both of these alter torque. It's all rotational force, and that's torque, not weight.

 

Having said that, it's all about how you choose to frame this in your head. The levers change because the weight distribution in space changes, and that changes the leverage, which alters the torque.

 

It's kind of circular logic, if you'll pardon that pun

[Brian Li]

I made a video comparing the "super PPPs" to regular PPP.  I was actually piked when doing the "super PPPs" which might actually move the COM toward the hands, but it is still very difficult. The first rep in the video with the hands 4 inches behind the COM is harder than straddle or half lay planche push-ups despite being piked. With a straight body, it would be harder than a full planche push-up.

 

I don't do these often, but after realizing being piked, I had a spotter check me one time to try reps with a completely straight body and I could only do a small ROM since the lower parts are so much harder. I wonder if it is possible to be able to do a complete rep with a straight body for these "Super PPPs" with hands a few inches behind your COM. Still, the top part can make a very good planche lean with straight body - "super planche lean". 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8TQMKwaTbU

[Brian Li]

So I recently built up to being able to do 3 consecutive reps of full planche push-ups and decided to try the super PPPs and super planche leans again to see if I've improved in these.

 

The results were pretty nice and I've managed to get a more or less straight body with these although my first attempt was slightly piked, but the subsequent attempts were straight once I had a spotter telling me. For the super PPPs, I still couldn't go all the way down since the torque was too much for me with that extra lean at the bottom.

 

I also deliberately kept a slight arm bend in the super planche lean and didn't lockout on the push-ups because my tendons weren't fully healed yet.

 

 

Notice the the hands are behind the hips (my COM) even at the very top of the position. The lean here is even greater than the lean in a full planche.

 

I could have held the super planche lean longer because my first attempt was done with a slightly piked body for 5 seconds just moments before my second attempt (the one featured here).

 

So if any of you guys have a full planche and or full planche push-ups want to try this out, make sure to have a spotter with you at least for the first time because it's hard to know if your body is straight or not until you get used to the feeling.

 

I find that this could be a good alternative for the full planche and full planche push-ups without the balance component, but I still prefer the real planches and planche push-ups. I dare say that the super PPPs with good form (straight body) are one of the hardest bent arm pushing exercises out there. I don't even want to imagined what they'll be like with a wider hand placement or with the hands several more inches further back.

[Joshua Naterman]

Based on the shadows, you may not be behind your COM... have you looked at your full planche from the hips and identified where your palm heel goes?

 

COM moves based on where your arms and legs are relative to each other and your body, and depends on your body comp (big legs versus small, concentration of mass in other words). It looks like your palm heel is at your waist line, and I know that for me, personally, in a full planche my COM is pretty close to where your hands appear to be at.

 

How do I know? I balanced on a padded balance beam with my hands in planche position. That's the easiest, lowest tech, but still accurate way I know of to truly find your COM for a given body position. It's totally different in full planche than tuck planche, or a human flag.

 

I know you probably know that, just seeking verification. You can always brace the feet as you've done, and the leverage will just continue to decrease. It's all physics, for the most part. If you want to train the actual planche hand position instead of over-leaning, you could just use bands or a backpack on your thighs. That would continue to add difficulty, but admittedly is more complicated.

[Joshua Naterman]

God, I hate being out of real-time. I can't modify anything once I press "post."

 

I can see that your hands are below your iliac crests, but they look to be at your wasitband level. Are you sure that's overbalanced for you? I'm assuming so, just curious if you have done that comparison from my previous post.

[Brian Li]

I think my COM for the full planche is where the palm heels are under the tip of the iliac crests when the fingers are pointing back. Now that I look closely at those planche leans, it does look like it is below my COM and not behind it. I will record and post another video of these leans with a perfect side view next time to verify where the palm heels are under.

 

I think I placed my palm heels 3-4 inches behind the tip of the iliac crests (which I believed to be my COM) when I was lying face down, so I'm not sure how far back I leaned at the top of the position.

 

Here is an old video of my full planche if this helps to determine where my COM is located although it isn't a direct side view.

[Joshua Naterman]

It's tough to say, the arm angles look pretty similar. Might be slightly less crazy in the full planche. You are also not able to actually hold a full lay planche in that video for more than an instant, so it took some pausing practice to get a good still frame.

[Brian Li]

So I recorded another video with a direct side view this time and my palm heels are definitely behind the tip of my waistband and iliac crests. It looks to be at least 3 inches behind and I placed my palm heels 4-5 inches behind the top of waistband at the bottom lying down position just like in my two previous videos.

 

[Joshua Naterman]

How does this compare to a direct side view of your planche? Just curious. Be careful to sit the same shorts at the same point on your hips, just for consistency... that way it will be easier to make meaningful comparisons.

[Joshua Naterman]

I do think that is behind your center of mass, by the way. I am just a curious soul

[Brian Li]

Curiosity is a good thing. 

Here's a direct side view of my full planche:

 

It looks like from the video that my COM in full lay may be slightly in front of my iliac crests. It is apparent that the "super planche leans" (straight body) I did had the palm heels behind my COM by some distance.

 

How do think they would compare between the two in difficulty in terms of strength? What is your opinion of these "super planche leans" and "super PPPs" if one can consistently do them with good form (straight hollow body)?

[Joshua Naterman]

You know I have to notice that your arms aren't straight, right?