Protraction and External Rotation

[Joel Tomkins]

So I've been reading 'Becoming a Supple Leopard' by Kelly Starret and learning a lot about correct movement. Being able to move well and have the full ROM and strength that we are designed for was one of my goals for starting GST. Kelly's book is filling in the basics for human movement in every day life for me but I have a question about stabilising the shoulder.

Kelly says that to create stability in the shoulder for any pressing movement the shoulders should be externally rotated and pulled back and down in the socket. Obviously the planche has a different requirement in that the focus is on protraction or the pushing forward and down of the shoulder. In either case the shoulder is stabilised against a side of its capsule but the former feels a lot more stable to me.

Are we making a compromise in shoulder stability by protracting to gain more height from the ground in the planche? It seems easier to create full body tension when the shoulders are protracted which counters the possibly less stable shoulder position. Also should I be trying to externally rotate (turn elbow pits forward) the shoulder whilst protracted?


Thanks!

Edit: I did mean protraction 

[Travis Widmann]

I don't know the technical answer here. I've seen the book though. Doesn't he advocate protracting in the push-up? I don't remember. Also, I think you mean protracting instead of pronating the shoulder.

 

Anyway, try a planche lean with retracted shoulders. It feels terrible. Protraction feels much more stable to me. I seriously doubt you can argue that it's less stable than retraction in that scenario. Maybe you're overthinking it.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you should point the crook of the elbows forward.

[Joel Tomkins]

You're right I do mean protraction - I've been reading about foot mechanics as well!
 

 

 

Anyway, try a planche lean with retracted shoulders. It feels terrible. Protraction feels much more stable to me. I seriously doubt you can argue that it's less stable than retraction in that scenario. Maybe you're overthinking it.

 

Yeah that's what I found. It's easier to get full body tension and stability with protracted shoulders. He doesn't actually specify protraction or retraction for the push up just that the shoulder should be set in a good position which he defines earlier in the book as externally rotated and retracted for pushing movements.

I am overthinking it only because I want to understand why protraction is recommended for the planche when for other pressing movements you actually want the opposite. Can you imagine bench pressing with protracted shoulders?

[Jon Douglas]

You're right I do mean protraction - I've been reading about foot mechanics as well!

 

 

Yeah that's what I found. It's easier to get full body tension and stability with protracted shoulders. He doesn't actually specify protraction or retraction for the push up just that the shoulder should be set in a good position which he defines earlier in the book as externally rotated and retracted for pushing movements.

I am overthinking it only because I want to understand why protraction is recommended for the planche when for other pressing movements you actually want the opposite. Can you imagine bench pressing with protracted shoulders?

I understand it's more for activation of the serratus and upper back muscles than anything to do with height.

[Connor Davies]

I know people recommend retraction of the scapula for bench press, which creates a more stable base to push from.  It's one of the reasons I hate bench press though, because it's a really artificial movement.  In real life whenever you push anything your scapula tend to move through a full range of motion.

[Joshua Naterman]

I know people recommend retraction of the scapula for bench press, which creates a more stable base to push from.  It's one of the reasons I hate bench press though, because it's a really artificial movement.  In real life whenever you push anything your scapula tend to move through a full range of motion.

Easy to say when you're not stuck under a dead body, a fallen tree, someone grappling you when you're on the ground, etc. There are natural situations that might require you to use some or all aspects of bench technique. I realize these aren't commonplace situations, but they do happen. Just a point I wanted to make, because if something heavy is on you you ARE going to want to retract in order to give your pressing muscles more favorable moment arms. You're also going to want to arch, to stabilize your spine.

 

As for the question about planche, you really won't get this until you can play with an articulating skeletal model of the upper body. You may be able to find a virtual one, but I don't know where. 

 

If you can see one, what I suggest is taking the shoulder blade and arm, put the arm into planche position, and look at the position of the shoulder socket on the blade and the head of the shoulder on the upper arm bone. Whatever position makes things line up nicely with the least amount of force pushing the head OUT or AWAY from the socket is what you want, and that brings you to protraction. There is also the acromion process to consider, and proper protraction ALSO causes posterior tilt, which means that the bony arm and tip of the acromion is pulled AWAY from the upper arm bone, thus avoiding impingement. Next you should play with internal and external rotation, looking at what happens to socket alignment and also the bony ridges at the top of the upper arm bone. The reality is going to become fairly apparent, and will be a pretty decent range. It's important to remember that all of the muscles actively supporting your body's weight are internal rotators, so you're not going to have full external rotation or anything.

 

Yes, this is not easy to do at home, but really understanding the human body is going to require you to spend a little time with some good tools. 

[Joel Tomkins]

Thanks for changing the thread title!

Yeah I'm definitely going to have to study some kind of model to understand all that you said Josh. Thanks again!

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks for changing the thread title!

Yeah I'm definitely going to have to study some kind of model to understand all that you said Josh. Thanks again!

You are welcome