Flat tuck Back Lever

[Petri Widsten]

4 hours ago, Igor Czerniawski said:

Ha Ha... Don't get offended please I don't mean anything  derogative  but You cracked me up Petri.  I need ring series. Can anyone post progressions with pics

I'm not offended but how do you always manage to come across so negative is what I'm wondering :-). The point I was trying to make is that a clear set or requirements would be helpful for many people. If that's enough to crack you up then good for you - laughter lengthens life.

[Igor Czerniawski]

36 minutes ago, Petri Widsten said:

I'm not offended but how do you always manage to come across so negative is what I'm wondering :-). The point I was trying to make is that a clear set or requirements would be helpful for many people. If that's enough to crack you up then good for you - laughter lengthens life.

Dude I'm not negative, and yes I can say you are angry with me, sorry. First I thought you were joking. It was funny in a way, sorry you didn't get it. This is obvious that you shouldn't ask for something that is for sale. I'd be happy to give you all these progression but I'd get kick out at the speed of light from here. And I think it wouldn't be fair with all the people that paid for it. You should probably avoid the word "foundation" in your question.

Regards.

[Fabio Pinna]

I am having trouble falling asleep tonight so I will add something to this thread, because this misunderstanding happens constantly and I pretty much never see it being addressed.

There are two ways of performing a back lever. I call them "intuitive" and "proper".

"Intuitive" is what 95% of people everywhere do: wrists facing the back of the body.

"Proper" is what would be taught to you if you were in gymnastics: wrists facing the floor.

The intuitive one is stupidly easy (for somebody with decent physical shape), because you are basically supporting yourself on your shoulder inflexibility. This of course comes with its own set of problems, but on average, as far as my experience goes (circus), I've pretty much never seen bicep or shoulder problems.

However, the proper one is the one we want, because it lets us transition from it to other elements, and use our musculature instead of simply resting on our ligaments. It, however, requires very good shoulder and arm conditioning before attempting.

I remember a study about kinematics of static positions in gymnastics. A proper back lever on rings puts MUCH more strain on shoulder and bicep connective tissue than a planche does, because of the more extreme angle of the shoulder. A planche puts around the same strain as a BL in the elbow, but nowhere near as close in the shoulder. So yeah, a real back lever is much harsher on your shoulders than planches will ever be.

The intuitive one is the one that pretty much everybody I come across refers to - exception being those who trained in gymnastics, who then assume the others are referring to their version... stuff gets confusing, and I get headaches.

[Petri Widsten]

55 minutes ago, Igor Czerniawski said:

Dude I'm not negative, and yes I can say you are angry with me, sorry. First I thought you were joking. It was funny in a way, sorry you didn't get it. This is obvious that you shouldn't ask for something that is for sale. I'd be happy to give you all these progression but I'd get kick out at the speed of light from here. And I think it wouldn't be fair with all the people that paid for it. You should probably avoid the word "foundation" in your question.

Regards.

No problem, Igor. It would be unreasonable to ask Foundation stuff for free, yes. I thought it would be obvious that only the "codes" would be listed so that you would still have to pay to find out what the actual exercises are. I should have elaborated to avoid this confusion.

[Jon Douglas]

3 hours ago, Fabio Pinna said:

I am having trouble falling asleep tonight so I will add something to this thread, because this misunderstanding happens constantly and I pretty much never see it being addressed.

There are two ways of performing a back lever. I call them "intuitive" and "proper".

"Intuitive" is what 95% of people everywhere do: wrists facing the back of the body.

"Proper" is what would be taught to you if you were in gymnastics: wrists facing the floor.

The intuitive one is stupidly easy (for somebody with decent physical shape), because you are basically supporting yourself on your shoulder inflexibility. This of course comes with its own set of problems, but on average, as far as my experience goes (circus), I've pretty much never seen bicep or shoulder problems.

However, the proper one is the one we want, because it lets us transition from it to other elements, and use our musculature instead of simply resting on our ligaments. It, however, requires very good shoulder and arm conditioning before attempting.

I remember a study about kinematics of static positions in gymnastics. A proper back lever on rings puts MUCH more strain on shoulder and bicep connective tissue than a planche does, because of the more extreme angle of the shoulder. A planche puts around the same strain as a BL in the elbow, but nowhere near as close in the shoulder. So yeah, a real back lever is much harsher on your shoulders than planches will ever be.

The intuitive one is the one that pretty much everybody I come across refers to - exception being those who trained in gymnastics, who then assume the others are referring to their version... stuff gets confusing, and I get headaches.

That lines up with my experience too. Pre foundation back lever (definitely arms away from lats, but as you say basically supported on inflexibility) for 40+ second, full bl pulls with +5kg on ankles for reps....

Bam. Impingement.

Dropping back to F1 best training decision i ever made; wish I'd realised what a goldmine it was sooner

[Brian Li]

12 hours ago, Fabio Pinna said:

I am having trouble falling asleep tonight so I will add something to this thread, because this misunderstanding happens constantly and I pretty much never see it being addressed.

There are two ways of performing a back lever. I call them "intuitive" and "proper".

"Intuitive" is what 95% of people everywhere do: wrists facing the back of the body.

"Proper" is what would be taught to you if you were in gymnastics: wrists facing the floor.

The intuitive one is stupidly easy (for somebody with decent physical shape), because you are basically supporting yourself on your shoulder inflexibility. This of course comes with its own set of problems, but on average, as far as my experience goes (circus), I've pretty much never seen bicep or shoulder problems.

However, the proper one is the one we want, because it lets us transition from it to other elements, and use our musculature instead of simply resting on our ligaments. It, however, requires very good shoulder and arm conditioning before attempting.

I remember a study about kinematics of static positions in gymnastics. A proper back lever on rings puts MUCH more strain on shoulder and bicep connective tissue than a planche does, because of the more extreme angle of the shoulder. A planche puts around the same strain as a BL in the elbow, but nowhere near as close in the shoulder. So yeah, a real back lever is much harsher on your shoulders than planches will ever be.

The intuitive one is the one that pretty much everybody I come across refers to - exception being those who trained in gymnastics, who then assume the others are referring to their version... stuff gets confusing, and I get headaches.

This may sound strange, but pronated grip BL was actually harder for me because I've always trained it with supinated grip and my forearm elbow flexors were much less developed than my biceps and brachialis. I also feel that having the palms facing away from the direction of the pull is harder to generate as much force.

Can you also send me a link to that study please?

[Alessandro Mainente]

if a normal person has a normal range of movement he can perform the back lever without problem for what is concerned with shoulders range of motion. in the planche situation you need to have normal range of motion plus an abnormal shoulders stabilization, how much? It depends on the orientation on the hands, planche with fingers backward as the maltese creates a impressive work on the shoulders especially in the rotator cuff that pulls back the upper arm head in the socked. here if the supraspinatus, long head tricep and posterior delt are enough developed and strong your risk or shoulders problem could be reduced. 

 

[Coach Sommer]

- There are not two ways to do a back lever; there is the correct way and there is the incorrect way.  People who are performing backlevers with the prontated grip are doing so because they are physically unprepared to train back levers and are attempting to avoid the load on the bicep and the range of motion involved.  Which is also why they get injured.

- If you lack shoulder extension mobility, are strong and still train back lever; you are taking an enormous risk of a biceps tear.  Now not everyone who does so will get injured, but the odds are somewhere between 5-10%.  Which are terrible odds as there is no way to know if you are at risk until something tears.  

Better to be smart, than sorry.

- Alessandro is exactly right.  If you lack shoulder extension mobility, which the manna progressions focus on heavily, then you are not physically prepared to train back levers.

Bottomline, guys.  If you want to train with your hair on fire and to hell with the consequences, then GymnasticBodies is not the right place for you.  Here we focus on proper mobility and physical preparation.  And these qualities take time, patience and focused training to develop.  

Given your history of injuries, you will come around to this point of view.  Eventually.  Hopefully sooner rather than later before you do yourselves permanent harm.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Brian Li]

Since, people here were talking about manna and back lever. Would a German hang demonstrate enough shoulder mobility for the manna?

[Alessandro Mainente]

Definitely no.

[Brian Li]

6 minutes ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

Definitely no.

That's seems very strange to me as the German hang seems to have the arms at the most extreme shoulder hyperextension compared to the manna which seems like halfway. 

I'm no kinesiologist or sports scientists so could you please explain why that is?

[Igor Czerniawski]

38 minutes ago, Brian Li said:

Since, people here were talking about manna and back lever. Would a German hang demonstrate enough shoulder mobility for the manna?

In my case working towards 5 sets of 1 min German hang definitely had its part in preparing my shoulders for working the back lever. However It's not just about shoulders extension. You need to work on specific muscle tension since true back lever is not just about hanging on your shoulders and just working the core to lift the legs up. Apart from that skin the cat might need its own prehab. I noticed a few people injuring themselves trying to do skin the cat. Same as in back lever people often hang on their joints doing German hang. Manna, planche, just generally progressions in foundation are a good combination to get your shoulders ready for back lever.

[Alessandro Mainente]

23 minutes ago, Brian Li said:

That's seems very strange to me as the German hang seems to have the arms at the most extreme shoulder hyperextension compared to the manna which seems like halfway. 

I'm no kinesiologist or sports scientists so could you please explain why that is?

Manna is active shoulders mobility, that means the ability to open the shoulders extension with upperback muscles. the mobility of GH it is only a little peace of the puzzle and something that you should ALREADY have before working on german hang.

 

[Josh Tate]

On 5/21/2016 at 8:21 AM, Alessandro Mainente said:

Manna is active shoulders mobility, that means the ability to open the shoulders extension with upperback muscles. the mobility of GH it is only a little peace of the puzzle and something that you should ALREADY have before working on german hang.

 

Whats the purpose of german hangs then if you are supposed to already have that mobility? I thought they were for inceasing the range of motion to prepare for BL (or a failed BL attempt so nothing breaks when you fall out of it) and start working on strength?

[Alexander Egebak]

You can consider German hang advanced mobility. There is a lot of strain on the chest and biceps. Without proper preparation people will either roll their shoulders forward (preventing pec minor from being stretched) or do these as an active hang because they cannot properly relax into such a strenuous position.

The advantage of GH is the heavy load which forces increased extension range of motion; that is also the disadvantage. GH requires significant extension range of motion and confidence in the position, something which you have to gain from elsewhere if you want to reap the benefits of GH.

[Josh Tate]

41 minutes ago, Alexander Egebak said:

You can consider German hang advanced mobility. There is a lot of strain on the chest and biceps. Without proper preparation people will either roll their shoulders forward (preventing pec minor from being stretched) or do these as an active hang because they cannot properly relax into such a strenuous position.

The advantage of GH is the heavy load which forces increased extension range of motion; that is also the disadvantage. GH requires significant extension range of motion and confidence in the position, something which you have to gain from elsewhere if you want to reap the benefits of GH.

So the idea is to be able to relax in the GH stretch and not tense up any? Or not having to provide a lot of tension because the mobility is there?

[Alexander Egebak]

32 minutes ago, Josh Tate said:

So the idea is to be able to relax in the GH stretch and not tense up any? Or not having to provide a lot of tension because the mobility is there?

Think of a deadhang; the only way to get deeper into the stretch is to relax the shoulders. Basically, and ideally, only your wrists and forearms should tense during the hold.

[Josh Tate]

6 minutes ago, Alexander Egebak said:

Think of a deadhang; the only way to get deeper into the stretch is to relax the shoulders. Basically, and ideally, only your wrists and forearms should tense during the hold.

That makes sense.  So what are some non-Foundation stretches/exercises to prepare for GH?

[Alexander Egebak]

Table positions, reverse planks, seated shoulder extensions etc. If you cannot figure it out on your own you will have to invest some money somewhere.

[Alessandro Mainente]

4 hours ago, Josh Tate said:

That makes sense.  So what are some non-Foundation stretches/exercises to prepare for GH?

german hang it is prepared by shoulder extension active range of motion which covers bicep and shoulder preparation, i'm sorry but foundations 4 has all what you need. ALL.

[Luke Searra]

The Foundation and handstand courses will be wonderful for working on your preparation holes and deficits. Not only are the courses one of the better ways to prevent injury, they are also one of the better ways to rehabilitate injury.