lower back grinding on hanging leg lifts

[Jeff]

I feel a grinding sensation in my lower back at the very bottom of my HLLs, coming back down on the negatives just before I completely straighten out.

 

It's not painful if I keep the volume low, but I have pulled my back and hurt myself (2-3 weeks) doing workouts for time with large sets and under fatigue.  It's not really a problem if I bend my legs though, as I would typically do for kipping toes-to-bar in a CrossFit WOD.  It's worse when I keep my legs straight as the longer levers stress my lower back more.

 

Is this mostly a strength issue for that end range of motion for my lower back?  If so, what progressions would you recommend?

 

Thanks!

[Afiya Zia]

I have experienced something like that before, but it was more of a popping than a grinding. What I found was that at the bottom of the repitition, I slipped into anterior pelvic tilt. You could check for that, it's as easy as standing against a wall and feeling around for excessive space in your lower back. I found that bird-dogs are especially therapeutic for my lower back. F1 will improve your hip mobility greatly and will take you through the HLL.

I advise you to cut down your volume to where the pain doesn't crop up, or maybe even totally avoid HLL until the discomfort subsides. Practice Hollow Body Holds/Rocks, and build up to sets of 60s. This will reinforce proper position for HLL and many static positions in gymnastics.

I would also dead hang at the bottom of a HLL in a hollow position. Just hang and try to understand what positions are comfortable and irritating as this may help you to understand proper form at the bottom of the rep. Practice planks in a hollow body position as well.

I believe Coach has written an article on developing the HLL on an exterior website, though you may just find it here. Read that for form tips.

Post a picture of the piece of the movement that is painful, as that can help identify the problem.

I understand that I have given a lot of work for you to do, so exercise caution when determining the volume of work you should do.

PS: I would get a second opinion on what I have suggested, as I have pretty mediocre knowledge concerning the mechanics of the body, but I am giving you the plan that works for my back pain. Good luck!

[Nic Branson]

Part strength and part mobility. Huge problem with the kip is that you end up not training the entire range of motion. You need I start with slow reps. Knees up then legs to 90 etc

Stretch and work your hip mobility.

[Afiya Zia]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but it has been found that lower back ENDURANCE greatly helps in preventing lower back injuries. I don't know the exact study, so forgive that please. Listen to what Nic said, he knows more than me! Stretching the hips and groin is very important, not just for form and injury prevention, but also for strength gains.

Yeah, I didn't pick up on the Kipping HLL. I believe there is some degree of technique involved in proper kipping, so it could be beneficial to learn that before engaging in any exercise of a kipping nature. The community here (myself included) feels that kipping is not the pathway to the greatest gains in strength. Note how HLL and MU without a Kip is harder as you do not have the assistance of momentum. Treat them as a necessity until non-Kipping reps are achievable.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

Great post and good advice Aadil Siddiqi

[Joshua Naterman]

Spinal endurance as a risk factor for back pain is the result of a very large Scandinavian study. The results are that if you can't hold yourself in a horizontal arch up position (back extension that is unsupported from the hips up, whole body parallel with the ground on a back extension bench) for at least one minute you are WAAAAY more likely to experience back pain.

 

However, this will probably not help you with your HLL.

 

For your HLL, you will need to learn to feel all the muscle on your leg working., your entire body really. Nothing should feel blank or empty, but you are only actively contracting your stomach, hip flexors, and thighs. I find it helps to concentrate a little on glutes and hamstrings as well.

 

Basically, because psoas is a hip flexor AND is attached to the lower back, if you don't know how to keep all of your posterior tilt muscles active (glutes, hamstrings, obliques, rectus abdominus) while the hip flexors are letting the legs go down, you will end up losing spinal stability. To compensate, your body will automatically tighten up the lower back muscles, and you will have pain.

 

You are most likely not actively in tune with this process. You should feel the presence of all the same muscles that you feel at 90 degrees when your body is nearly (or all the way) straight. In other words, you are letting those posterior tilt muscles get lazy at the bottom of the rep.

 

When you make that connection, which can only be done through practice, the grinding will (almost certainly) completely disappear.

[Jeff]

Thanks for the help, everyone!

It definitely makes sense that it's an endurance issue for my posterior hip tilters.  Once I fatigue, I have difficulty maintaining a decent hollow when I near end range.

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks for the help, everyone!

It definitely makes sense that it's an endurance issue for my posterior hip tilters.  Once I fatigue, I have difficulty maintaining a decent hollow when I near end range.

That's true, but it's more than that.

 

Think about this: The bottom is easier than the top, so why would fatigue affect you at the BOTTOM? I do not believe that this is the primary factor. I believe that you are unconsciously letting go of most of your posterior tilters at the bottom. My personal belief is that this is probably causing you to either rely on muscles that actually ARE fatigued to the point where they can't handle it OR that you are literally losing most activation.

 

Either way, the answer to your issue is simple: Don't push that far into the set. You are doing too many reps if that is happening. 

 

You may find that practicing moving from an arch to a hollow, while hanging at the bottom, will let you learn how to keep those muscles active. Move between them slowly. Learn how to maintain your hollow and lift your legs from zero to 30 degrees and back. This will help you keep control at the bottom.

[Blairbob]

 No kipping on HLL or TTB or K2E in GST.

 

 Master one of those, learn a basic ring swing tap. Then you can do all the K2E/T2B during a CF WOD so long as your grip doesn't fail.

 

 Honestly, I would only let the little kinder kids or maybe L1 do any sort of kip into T2B. Like maybe if they were learning to just kick their toes up to the rings to get upside down. Maybe if they were in an adult class or rec class and didn't really care. Basically rec mindset. Team kids almost never past L1.

 

 Want to get strong? No kip.

 But it's still a good idea to learn a basic hollow>arch>hollow "tap" on a bar. Good for the shoulders and lower back. Even better on legit gymnastics rings (can't really recommend them on fitness rings).