Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU

[Rachid Tahri]

Martin Berkhan's  website also has lots of (quality) information about intermittent fasting.

[Kevin Conley]

The lessons here are numerous. Most diet fads have something that is worthwhile to take from them, even though most are too extreme. The evolution of paleo started with adkins and the zone, and then when those did not bear out moved on from there. Many of the same people that are paleo advocates were diehard zone advocates at the time. The paleo diet does bring to light the need to get away from the packaged foods we now see in most of the supermarket and towards whole foods. The paleo diet, though, emphasizes meat consumption, and that is where it misfires. too much meat is not healthy. Meat should not be the dominant calorie in our diet. I like meat, wish it were a healthy option, but the problem with paleo is it takes this too far. Again, there are some beneficial components of paleo, just like there are with the zone, the 90-10-10, the 5-2, etc. We should all fast now and then, that is how we evolved. there are periods of food scarcity, and periods of food excess. In modern times that is not the case. That doesn't mean the 5-2 diet is a good diet, that is just one thing we can take away from that diet. The common sense diet is still the best. You eat lots of healthy food in its natural state. you eat a variety of foods, you avoid boxes and bags of food. Meat is a part of that, but a small part. Yes, you will feel better.

People get hung up on the studies, because that is how we avoid falling into the trap of doing things that we later learn are bad. Adkins is a good example. Without studies people might still think that was a good diet, but the science showed us worsening vascular disease and lipid profiles in these patients and so we don't recommend that. Same thing with dietary supplements. Niacin does not decrease heart disease and may have some adverse effects, particularly on diabetes. Fish oils do not decrease heart disease, but may cause an increase in prostate cancer. the list goes on and on. It is vitally important to understand why we do something before we jump on the latest bandwagon.

How's that for a rant! Cheers to you all. I enjoy this forum and your lively discourse.

 

 

I have gone into the scientific literature myself, and I would say what paleo is touting is pretty scientifically grounded. It is important to not jump bandwagons, but we must always be looking at cost vs. benefit. How strong is the link between the "bad effect" and the food or supplement we are talking about?

 

Take red meat. Every study I have seen in literature so far citing red meat as worsening vascular disease and lipid profiles (define your understanding of favorable lipid profiles please) were epidemological studies that CANNOT prove causation, but ONLY association. The Nurses Health study (among many others I have read) is a very commonly cited study that associates CVD with red meat consumption...but actually is also linking it to 4-5 other things (trans fat consumption, smoking, diabetes for example). However, red meat being bad was what the media and the medical community picked up on. The populations eating red meat were unhealthier to begin with and you can't just tack that to one thing (in this case, red meat).

 

I agree that the paleo diet may be taking red meat consumption a bit high, but really, no one knows yet. What we need are randomly controlled double blind studies testing red meat consumption WITH a lot of varied vegetable sources and some fruits. Until then, we will continue to have vegetarians and paleo-type eaters at odds. 

 

Anyone thinking eating vegetarian is best, the research doesn't support that any more than the mostly meat camps because they don't control for smokers, drinkers, the quality of meat (grass vs grain fed) and how much vegetable (or fruit or really anything else) matter are eaten.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479225

 

This study can be seen as a good support for eating less meat, but in reality, red meat eaters smoked more, drank more, exercised less, etc.. In general though, I would not tell someone to eat less red meat, but to rather eat grass fed, eat lots of vegetabls and moderate amounts of fruit, move more, and follow healthy habits.

 

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1613S.long

 

This study will also illustrate the idea that eating less red meat wont necessarily confir better health.

 

 

At least so far we can agree (until the media helps the general popultion get more educated) that foods are usually best in natural states, and variety is good.

[Joshua Naterman]

Totally agree with too much meat being bad, but I've not gotten the impression from any of the main Paleo dudes (Robb Wolfe, Diane Sanfilippo etc) that meat consumption should be a priority.  On the contrary, I always thought they emphasized vegetables most (which I also agree with)...Maybe I'm just projecting my own beliefs though! hehehe.

 

I actually whipped up a blog post recently about it if anyone is interested here.  Speaking of fasting, there is also a pretty interesting Steve Maxwell article suggesting it can be used effectively to build muscle mass.  http://www.maxwellsc.com/blog.cfm?blogID=115

 

I'd be curious to see what Josh Naterman thinks about it!

The Maxwell article: An ugly mix of truth, assumption, observation, inconsistent lighting, inconsistent body position, misconception, and some broscience. In my opinion, the worst kind of explanation and photo example. Oliver already had the majority of the muscle he is carrying as of that Feb. 2013 picture, but the primary change I see is body fat. Even that is, in my opinion, changing too slowly for an 18 month period. It's a decent result, and maybe this guy Oliver wasn't supremely motivated. I think that anyone who makes that change in 18 months should be satisfied, but that's not the same thing as saying it is the best you can achieve without drugs. It is not.

 

Maxwell has his audience, and perhaps he is simply catering to them, but it sounds like he is speaking from his heart, and I am of a different informed opinion. Such is life.

 

Let me be clear: I don't have time to get into detail on that until after Sep. 11. 

 

I have also never stated that you could not get good results on a leangains plan, which is basically what Maxwell is describing indirectly.

[Kevin Conley]

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

 

Points out how all the assumptions and precepts of the Paleo diet are based on Myth. 

 

And points out the facts and reality of real Ancient diets. 

 

I have no background in the actual archaeology (I focus on the nutrition), but this person gave a rebuttal:

http://blog.mymedicalmeals.com/news/christina-warinners-debunking-paleo-diet-obscurantism-at-its-very-best/

[Edgaron]

Well, the fact is that...

 

There have been vegeatarian supercenetarians, but I have yet to read about a ''paleo'' cenetarian. Most of them weren't vegetarians or vegans for a lot of their life, though.

 

On the other hand, quite a few of them still ate sugar, fish, meat, most of them didn't even emphasize their diet.

 

Man, if that's not enough proof that you don't have to be a fruitarian or a pure meat eater, then I don't know what is.

 

P.S. Japanese are crushing it at the longevity of their citizens. 10% increase in cenetarians in 2010. Wonder what the latest data is...

 

''The government said the number of its citizens who are at least 100 years old rose 10 percent to 44,449 in 2010.''

[Philip Chubb]

You have to also account for other things with lifespan. For example, how much are they sitting? Sitting has been shown to be pretty detrimental. If you're into studies, there was one in Austrailia, I believe, that showed how the average man could increase his lifespan by cutting out the time he spent on TV. It's a lifestyle overall that dictates a lot of your lifespan.

[Kevin Conley]

Well, the fact is that...

 

There have been vegeatarian supercenetarians, but I have yet to read about a ''paleo'' cenetarian. Most of them weren't vegetarians or vegans for a lot of their life, though.

 

On the other hand, quite a few of them still ate sugar, fish, meat, most of them didn't even emphasize their diet.

 

Man, if that's not enough proof that you don't have to be a fruitarian or a pure meat eater, then I don't know what is.

 

P.S. Japanese are crushing it at the longevity of their citizens. 10% increase in cenetarians in 2010. Wonder what the latest data is...

 

''The government said the number of its citizens who are at least 100 years old rose 10 percent to 44,449 in 2010.''

Haven't read about a paleo cenetarian, therefore, must not exsist? First, a lot goes unreported. Second, the paleo diet is pretty recent. 1960's I believe was when it really started, and even then was very small. Anyway, I am talking nutrition, not a labeling of a diet per se.

 

Anyway, yes, but if you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian in my opinion. We might want to use the different type of vege classifications I guess.

 

 

 

Japanese are crushing everyone, but they also make up a lot of their centurians. That is proven. I met one in Japan once though (My gf's, mom's friend's father  ....haha, that is long) and it was really cool.

[Jon Douglas]

Regarding the Japanese lifespan thing, while I understand it IS the case, there are a lot of beauracracy issues. Twice that I'm aware of while I was in the country there were scandals when they attempted to locate the new oldest living person in the country, only to discover them dead and either their families continuing to claim pension or the elderly person simply having slipped through the cracks and the government records never being updated. The one that stuck in my head was a woman supposed to be some 130 years old who, upon forcible entry to her apartment, was discovered long since deceased. Like, putrefaction long since deceased.

 

Everything I've read about the extended lifespans in Okinawa makes particular mention of the community sense as well as their diet.

I also have grandparents from Greece who fled tiny islands during WW2 who have clung on to life with ridiculous tenacity-- a psychologically tougher breed than the generations since. Four of them into the nineties and with an active social life show no signs of slowing down.

 

Last point is the number of people you see, on retirement, aging dramatically in a few years. This is something I have spoken about with my father, who is now thinking about retirement from a stressful position, who has seen many a colleague attempt to just 'stop' being CEO, or politician, and have no outlet for their energy, drive, etc, after thriving on stress for years. These guys retire at 60, 65 full of life and and with nowhere to put it, suddenly turn into old men in a few years. Compare that to Japan, Greece where on retirement the people will farm, put their energy into the community and social outlets (as my somewhat aged but venerated grandparents do).

 

I guess my point there is, work-life balance is also a smart provision for your later life. Eating and training right sets the easier cards to control in your favour, but frankly I believe you have to want to stick around too.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) Everything I've read about the extended lifespans in Okinawa makes particular mention of the community sense as well as their diet.(...)

 

The new generation on Okinawa is quickly catching up with the US.............................

[Jon Douglas]

The new generation on Okinawa is quickly catching up with the US.............................

During the SAME generation as the Kardashians.

I know, i know, correlation does not imply causation, but my gut (and theirs) says no coincidence.

[Edgaron]

I'm not saying there aren't any paleo cenetarians, but come on, the concept of ''paleo'' has only gone mainstream in the last what, decade or so? I don't really know.

 

But if there are people who do not eat paleo and live up to be 110 or more, why change what works?

 

It seems that it's more about how you handle stress, relationships, mental and physical activity, rather than only what you eat.

 

And, hell, I didn't even realize a country would go as far as to fake their cenetarians.

[Jon Douglas]

Japan has such a bureaucracy issue it could just be that thirty years after death they are being discovered during delivery of their retirement gold.watch. You sort of have to.live there to appreciate how much paperwork an office can really generate when you put your mind to it

[Craig Mallett]

The Maxwell article: An ugly mix of truth, assumption, observation, inconsistent lighting, inconsistent body position, misconception, and some broscience. In my opinion, the worst kind of explanation and photo example. Oliver already had the majority of the muscle he is carrying as of that Feb. 2013 picture, but the primary change I see is body fat. Even that is, in my opinion, changing too slowly for an 18 month period. It's a decent result, and maybe this guy Oliver wasn't supremely motivated. I think that anyone who makes that change in 18 months should be satisfied, but that's not the same thing as saying it is the best you can achieve without drugs. It is not.

 

Maxwell has his audience, and perhaps he is simply catering to them, but it sounds like he is speaking from his heart, and I am of a different informed opinion. Such is life.

 

Let me be clear: I don't have time to get into detail on that until after Sep. 11. 

 

I have also never stated that you could not get good results on a leangains plan, which is basically what Maxwell is describing indirectly.

Thanks Josh! Always enjoy reading your stuff on this forum

[Kevin Conley]

The new generation on Okinawa is quickly catching up with the US.............................

Wow, seriously? That sucks to hear.

[Ádám Ficsór]

Unfortunately most of the people that search for reasons are the same people that take no real action at the end of the day. They over think stuff and compare the different arguments and before they know it, they are making a study out of it...while getting fatter and fatter.

So what? A lot of people know if they would set a calorie deficit they would lose weight. They still don't do that, because the problem is not with their information, it's with their food control and patience.

Whats wrong with that if they share their information? What's wrong with that if they enjoy more the researching process than the application process in themselves?

[Matthew Proulx]

Very interesting video, I am of the mind that too much of anything is a bad thing, but recently I have cut out all bread and grains from my diet except oats, and I feel much better. I also think everyone would be better off without ANY sugar. As far as meat goes, I do not eat much beef, I know first hand the drugs we give them. If you are going to eat lots of red meat, then hunt deer. I am a big advocate of eating as much organic if possible.