Hand positions for fundamental moves

[Seabird]

Question regarding hand placement when going through the progressions for the fundamental moves. For some context, I've been using parallets up to this point to train for the manna. I've been keeping my back straight and focusing on pushing my hips in front of my wrists, and had felt like I was making progress with the horizontal middle split hold position. Then, I decided to try to do it without the parallets, and to just keep the hands facing backwards... Boy, what a difference that made. 

 

My shoulders started bunching up forwards, my hands were on my wrists again and I felt like I'd been sent back to square one. So I said hey, wait a minute, and tried for an L sit with the hands facing backwards. Similarly, my previously strong seeming L sit (was able to hold a 15 second sit with my legs at just under 90 degrees, facing the ceiling, while using parallets), had been body slammed backwards. It was like my hip pressing ability had vanished. So I started looking around for training methods. 

 

Regarding training for the manna and L sit, I've seen differing training methods espoused by different trainers. Steven Low says that the way to train for the progressions of the manna is to do what I just mentioned - starting with the L sit with the hands facing backwards, and working up to the horizontal middle split hold from what would be equivalent to the advanced parallel bar L sit, but again, with hands facing backwards. 

 

So my question is this - is there an advantage, or is it disadvantageous, or not relevant to manna progression to have the hands facing backwards during L sit progressions? And could anyone tell me a bit more about why its so much more difficult to do the L sits with the hands facing backwards? Thanks a lot.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

I am not sure that Steven Low has a manna himself, nor how many of his students acquired one with him.

You should take a look at Foundation one and the rest of the series too for your manna training Seabird; that will save you quite a bit of aggravation, time and risks along the way.

[Brian Li]

Steven Low has shown a press to manna in his YouTube channel, but the legs weren't parallel to the floor and that was an old video. So he probably has achieved a perfect one by now.

Hands backwards is actually easier for the manna because the wrists can act as a cantilever. The reason that you feel that it's harder is because you are not used to it and that you are currently at L-sits and MSH which don't really lean on the wrists yet.

[Seabird]

Thanks for the reply - I'm not quite sure I am understanding what you're saying 100%, but I may have been a bit rushed in my writing. Specifically, I'd gone through the first two progressions of the manna with parallets, and have only started going through with the middle split hold a few weeks ago, with the focus having been on moving my hands away from my wrists as they had been when I started this hold a few weeks ago. Are you suggesting that doing it with the hands backwards will make this hold easier after I've "greased the groove," so to speak, or rather that it will be easier to make progress when training for the later holds?

 

B1214N, on 25 Sept 2013 - 2:23 PM, said:

Steven Low has shown a press to manna in his YouTube channel, but the legs weren't parallel to the floor and that was an old video. So he probably has achieved a perfect one by now.

Hands backwards is actually easier for the manna because the wrists can act as a cantilever. The reason that you feel that it's harder is because you are not used to it and that you are currently at L-sits and MSH which don't really lean on the wrists yet.

[Brian Li]

You will get more support from the wrists when your hips get pushed out higher with hands back whereas you won't get that support from the wrists with the other hand placements. So in other words, hands back is harder for the lower manna progressions without much of a shoulder angle like L-sits, but is easier as you get higher towards a manna compared to the same thing with the other hands placements. I don't have a manna and started out similar to you where I had a pretty strong L-sit, V-sit, and MSH with hands forward, but when I switched to hands backward it was harder initially before I got more used to it.

[Seabird]

Noted. Do you think it'd be more beneficial going forward to continue with the inclined L sit on parallets, continuing to increase the incline, or to start working it with the hands facing backwards?

 

You will get more support from the wrists when your hips get pushed out higher with hands back whereas you won't get that support from the wrists with the other hand placements. So in other words, hands back is harder for the lower manna progressions without much of a shoulder angle like L-sits, but is easier as you get higher towards a manna compared to the same thing with the other hands placements. I don't have a manna and started out similar to you where I had a pretty strong L-sit, V-sit, and MSH with hands forward, but when I switched to hands backward it was harder initially before I got more used to it.

[Daniel Burnham]

Start middle split hold with hands backward.  That's where I made my transition in hand placement from forward to back.  I still do v-sit and lsit with hands forward because it is easier to press to handstand from there.

 

MSH is no joke and you will likely spend a long time perfecting it.  At first it seems impossible.  It really helps to have mastered all the mobility and foundation elements.  I don't think I could have gotten close to manna without extra mobility drills.

 

 

Steven Low has shown a press to manna in his YouTube channel, but the legs weren't parallel to the floor and that was an old video. So he probably has achieved a perfect one by now.
 

 

Mind showing me a link?  Also he has said he abandoned training the manna.  There is quite a bit of difference between lifting up to 45 degrees from parallel and parallel.  The strain on the triceps is huge and it is much more difficult to keep shoulders back.  This has been my experience.  I have only come within 20 degrees of parallel a few times on very fresh days.  

[Seabird]

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bubIS-oVB28

 

And thanks for the insight dude, I appreciate it.

 

Daniel Burnham, on 25 Sept 2013 - 5:17 PM, said:

 

 

Mind showing me a link?  Also I he has said he abandoned training the manna.