GST for instead of parkour strength conditioning

[Guest AlexanderE]

Hi everybody.
 
Right now I am taking a break from strength training because of a rotator cuff injury. While I am recovering I figured I might as well ask you this, since it has been on my mind for a long time.
 
Is it possible with good results to create a foundation-like training program with gymnastics for parkour? It would not be the same as foundation, because parkour requires you to train (some) plyometrics along with maximal strength. Parkour and evenmoreso freerunning is street gymnastics with a minimalism approach. This means that equipment like rings, ropes, paralettes and so on would not be ideal, unless you want to do your training in a gym.
 
A place where gymnastics are very different from parkour is the utilization of kips and swings to cheat yourself to explosiveness. That kipping motion rather a straight body position should indeed be emphasized. Another point is that parkour relies heavily on jump height and lenght; more than gymnastics. So I guess heavy squats with low reps would do it. Maybe add deadlift as well. Other than that for lower body; if you do parkour on off days the plyometric training would be integrated into normal parkour/technique training.

 

The information in pic related I wrote to 4chan.org/asp's (alternative sports board) parkour community. They thought my advice was great. But it was written quite impulsive and I do not pretend like if it is a thorough work.

 

I would appreciate if you would comment what I wrote, maybe come op with a work out plan yourself, or just leave some thoughts on the subject.

[Jon Douglas]

So you're okay with deadlifting, but not rings?

[Guest AlexanderE]

Got me there.

 

Actually, I thought of doing the single leg squats unless the strength and hypertrophy gains faded from them. Then afterwards I would consider going to a gym to squat or deadlift. Being the parkour entusiast I am I would prefer to keep equipment at a minimum, I can use parallel bars and highbars and other stuff found outside.

 

But enough of my preferences, let us stay on topic.

[Matthew Barrett]

Hi everybody.

 

Is it possible with good results to create a foundation-like training program with gymnastics for parkour? It would not be the same as foundation, because parkour requires you to train (some) plyometrics along with maximal strength. Parkour and evenmoreso freerunning is street gymnastics with a minimalism approach. This means that equipment like rings, ropes, paralettes and so on would not be ideal, unless you want to do your training in a gym.

 

 

A place where gymnastics are very different from parkour is the utilization of kips and swings to cheat yourself to explosiveness. That kipping motion rather a straight body position should indeed be emphasized. Another point is that parkour relies heavily on jump height and lenght; more than gymnastics. So I guess heavy squats with low reps would do it. Maybe add deadlift as well. Other than that for lower body; if you do parkour on off days the plyometric training would be integrated into normal parkour/technique training.

 

You can put your equipment outside.

 

Gymnastics utilizes kips to a large extent.  Basic tumbling utilizes the same principles in kipping.  The transfer of momentum from one part of the body to another is everywhere in gymnastics.

 

If you think that jumping ability and leg strength are not important in gymnastics you are seriously mistaken.

 

The carry over from gymnastics into other sports is huge.  All I ever did was tumbling and I can out jump every parkour guy who comes in thinking their hot stuff because they can do a side flip.  The little pre-teen and teen girls are doing it standing on a balance beam just over yonder on the other side of the gym.

 

I enjoy tumbling and I do the free running occasionally as well.  It easy and casual flipping.  I am not trying to put parkour down or your strength advice but your best bet is to get the Foundation program and begin following it.  It is the best market program available for acrobatic sports.  It is designed by National Coach who has the credentials to back it up.  It's not a gimmick program made by a self-proclaimed internet guru that are all to common now.

 

I recommend the Foundation series because it is the best and you won't waste time spinning your wheels or looking for the next best program.

 

Also, you get access to forums that are regularly visited by the author!  The amount of knowledge given out in those forums is worth it alone.

[ForzaCavaliere]

Hi! 

 

I think it necessary to point out that gymnast strength is more than adequate for parkour. If you have a solid GST program, you would have a very good strength base for parkour, all that would have to be modified is the leg training (include more sprinting and long/high jump). Then you would be good to go. 

 

Ideally, you would do Gymnastic Strength Training™ combined with athletics (sprinting and jumping) for the physical fitness aspect of parkour, then include parkour-specific technique training and voila: you're prepared for parkour.

[Daniel Burnham]

I will add some anecdotal evidence. I have a gymnast friend who went to a parkour gym with me one day. He had been training gymnastics for a whole longer than me. He was able mimic almost everything he saw the other guys doing with ease. His jumps and flips were much more powerful and he rebounded like it was nothing.

This was only from gymnastic training

I understand you want more plyo work. In fact if a gymnast only followed foundation he wouldn't become very explosive. The fact is that foundation is just the base layer. The courses upcoming including movement will cover this in great detail. But foundation level prep is necessary to do these things without risk of injury.

[Joshua Slocum]

Is it possible with good results to create a foundation-like training program with gymnastics for parkour? It would not be the same as foundation, because parkour requires you to train (some) plyometrics along with maximal strength. Parkour and evenmoreso freerunning is street gymnastics with a minimalism approach. This means that equipment like rings, ropes, paralettes and so on would not be ideal, unless you want to do your training in a gym.

The Parkour equivalent to Foundation would be Foundation. Do you think plyometrics and explosiveness are not important in gymnastics? The purpose of Foundation is to develop a base of mobility, maximal strength and work capacity. Plyometics and other exercises for developing explosive power are found in the Movement series (to be released soon). While parkour may take a minimalist approach, that does not mean your training should also be minimalist. The Foundation series uses equipment because it is a compilation of the most essential and effective bodyweight exercises for a GST beginner to master. Eschewing e.g. rope climbs and ring work would mean giving up incredibly effective tools for building strength.

 

A place where gymnastics are very different from parkour is the utilization of kips and swings to cheat yourself to explosiveness. That kipping motion rather a straight body position should indeed be emphasized. Another point is that parkour relies heavily on jump height and lenght; more than gymnastics. So I guess heavy squats with low reps would do it. Maybe add deadlift as well.

You are misinformed, both about gymnastics and about movement in general. First, a large part of gymnastics is based on effectively using kips and swings to generate explosiveness. Second, and more importantly, gymnastics training emphasizes straight-body movements not because of aesthetics but because it builds a great deal of power and control, and because straight-body positions are often advantageous for expressing strength and explosiveness.

With regards to legs, explosiveness is important in gymnastics (especially for vaulters, and to a lesser extent for tumblers), though perhaps not quite as indispensable as in parkour. While supplementing plyometic work with weighted would be a good idea, your first priority should be to complete the SLS progressions, especially the iM elements. These build strength and mobility in the hips, knees and ankles - essential for anyone who wants to do any kind of tumbling or free-running. After completing the SLS progressions, you would want to continue performing the iM elements in your warmup, while building your maximal strength with some weighted work.

[Guest AlexanderE]

Just to clear out some misconceptions; parkour is not about jumping and flipping around. Parkour is the raw strength and efficiency it takes to clear a path. The acrobatics added makes it freerunning. Now I do not give a damn about acrobatics, I am in for the minimalistic appeal and philosophy.

 

I know many gymnasts are there are stronger and more skilled athletes than parkour practicioners out there due to years of training, phenotypical advantage (gymnasts benefit from being smaller, which is an advantage for free running, but not parkour) og coaching. Many parkour practitioners are self-tought, which along with the positive sides definatly also has its flaws. I believe that if parkour practitioners knew how to train properly, the skill level would increase tremendously.

 

Know there is also many stereotypes of parkour practitioners out there. Going to a "parkour-gym" you will be very less likely to find a true practitioner. Too many people care about flips, big vaults and trics. Fuck that. Unneccesary bling for showing off which is actually the opposite to parkour.

 

Enough with ranting. Many of you suggest foundation which is fair enough. And it is a good solution. But there are some problems here.

1: Parkour strength training is supplemental to parkour training, and if it takes too much time (to complete training for a week) the "normal parkour" will be neglected which cannot happen.

2: Parkour is minimalistic and many will prefer to strength train outside, along with their normal training. Foundation requires a lot of equipment, a lot of money, and even more money for a proper gym, buying items yourself or building them yourself.

3: Foundation is not aimed at parkour. The foundation series covers gymnastic moves, not parkour. For instance building up static postions will not help you much in parkour; it will help you to do something new, yes, but not very relevant to parkour.

I might be able to add more, but you get the point?

 

Some gymnastic skills which I consider essential to parkour:

Bar muscle up; greatly important, especially if you like to do swings and climb ups.

Single leg squat; all this take-off with one foot will benefit from the balance and strength single leg squats give.

(pseudo)planche pushups; the monkey vaults are basically a push ups motion going deep, especially for vaulting for length

Back lever; being able to keep a straight back will help you fly longer in vault.

Hanging leg raises; for kipping strength for swing.

Rows; for underbar and underbar swings.

 

This is just the most important stuff I can come up with.

Sorry for bad language and french, I am not native to english.

[Guest AlexanderE]

Thank you for you response Joshua. Sorry if I am misinformed.

 

Something I forgot about last post; foundation will take too long to complete and will seem aimless for parkour practioners to complete. It takes around 4-6 years for an average individual, right?

 

I am looking for a program specifically designed for parkour (a friend has bought foundation 1 and 2), and I wonder if you could help me get somewhere. I already wrote pic related and I wanted critique about it.

 

I think you can use foundation as a base program using the mobility excersizes, but excluding some of the advanced core progression excersizes(like manna) and substitute some progressions with some more relevant for parkour.

[Joshua Slocum]

Thank you for you response Joshua. Sorry if I am misinformed.

 

Something I forgot about last post; foundation will take too long to complete and will seem aimless for parkour practioners to complete. It takes around 4-6 years for an average individual, right?

 

I am looking for a program specifically designed for parkour (a friend has bought foundation 1 and 2), and I wonder if you could help me get somewhere. I already wrote pic related and I wanted critique about it.

 

I think you can use foundation as a base program using the mobility excersizes, but excluding some of the advanced core progression excersizes(like manna) and substitute some progressions with some more relevant for parkour.

Don't be sorry about being misinformed. We're all here to learn, after all

 

A dedicated athlete, starting at a moderate degree of fitness, should be able to complete Foundation in 2-3 years. Also note that the progressions should not seem 'aimless' - you'll see continual improvements in your parkour abilities as you progress through the series. And if it does take you 4-6 years to complete, then what of it? That's 4-6 years of continually improving strength, mobility, and control. You're looking for a program specifically for parkour: that's great. I am telling you that Foundation (combined with Movement once it is released) is the best thing you're going to find. (Adding in Handstand would be a good idea, too). 

 

I'm a bit confused - you say that you don't think the early Manna work would be useful for Parkour, but in your essay you explicitly recommend several core compression exercises. What would you have someone doing instead of the Manna work that you think would be more useful? 

 

I also still don't have a clear picture of what exactly you think needs changing. It might help if you wrote more about why you think Foundation is inadequate or not well suited to your training goals. As it is, I can't tell what you want that Foundation doesn't provide, or which parts of Foundation you think are extraneous. It's not a 100% complete bodyweight exercise plan (it is lacking in wrist strength/mobility, hand balancing, and plyometric work, but that's because those appear in the Handstand and Mobility courses), but it's the best program you're going to find for building a solid base of strength, mobility and work capacity. 

[Guest AlexanderE]

Okay, 2-3 years seems like very short time for a straddle planche. I am personally 6'2 (188 cm) and 170lbs (78kg) so I would be glad if it applied to me (: The intention of this post was not neccessarily to create a workout program for me, but for creating a draft that my friends and the parkour community in general could use (because they believe weightlifting/30 pushups, situps and squats will do the work - which is kinda sad). Before I elaborate my opinions on foundation content, I would like to say that to parkour practicioners it is not very open:

 

Cost a semi-large amount of money, requires equipment or gym membership (not a lot of gymnastic gyms in Denmark free/pay to use) and to many gymnastics (foundation) does not APPEAR to be the ultimate workout for parkour. I would be glad if we could discuss this more in depth and maybe even solve this in this thread.

 

About mana; it is such a high level skill and while it may give some general strength which could be used, it is not a position to work with in parkour. I believe that for some upper body work in parkour you should stop training maximal strength at some point (unless you like freerunning/gymnastics too much). This is because an earlier increased focus on drilling plyometrics would benefit parkour contrary to gymnastics (at least that is my hypothesis, and I cannot say WHEN the turning point would be). I guess this could be discussed too.

 

As to foundation and what I think is missing (writing this makes me feel like an idiot) when implimented on parkour:

- Plyometrics of course. If you say that would be solved by the movement 1 then there would be no problem at all. We just need that hight, lenght and rebound pretty early in our training.

- More strength training for legs. It was originally my plan to do SLS before moving to heavy squats or dead lifts and then maintain single legs squats just to have them. I can do 2x5 (need 5x5) so far and I do weighted calf raises, one legged.

- Explicit focus on aquiring parkour-like skills. This is also a bit of a marketing-concern. If the goals were more like aquiring muscle up strength, vault length, swing strength, cat leap grip strength and so on. I know I am asking for the impossible because foundation will not be altered. Better better transparency would help. Parkour practitioners do not care much about aquiring manna; they want that 3m swing. So focusing on something irrelevant (in their opinion) as manna while they could work on gaining length on their swing is not very likely to happen.

[Guest AlexanderE]

To add up; excersizes like pseudo planche pushups, hanging leg raises, dips, pull ups, single leg squats, muscles ups, rows, L-sit lifts and so on... these make uout some of the most useful excersizes for parkour, because the nature of them are incorporated into parkour movement. Common to those are that they are dynamic; parkour is dynamic and does not require you to have much static strength (however BL for keeping legs up in kong vaults, front lever for underbars and swings. Not much more than that. I do agree not straight arm/body work will increase strength and would be very benefitial, but 4/7 excersizes seem too much programwise - at least after foundation 2 I guess.

[Daniel Burnham]

To add up; excersizes like pseudo planche pushups, hanging leg raises, dips, pull ups, single leg squats, muscles ups, rows, L-sit lifts and so on... these make uout some of the most useful excersizes for parkour, because the nature of them are incorporated into parkour movement. Common to those are that they are dynamic; parkour is dynamic and does not require you to have much static strength (however BL for keeping legs up in kong vaults, front lever for underbars and swings. Not much more than that. I do agree not straight arm/body work will increase strength and would be very benefitial, but 4/7 excersizes seem too much programwise - at least after foundation 2 I guess.

The exercises you list are very good but not all encompassing of a good well rounded workout.  The foundation is meant for one thing Preparation.  It is the base level of prep that coach expects before engaging in more demanding activities like you mention.  The addition of static exercises are also quite beneficial whether you plan to do long static holds or not.  They build a great deal of tendon strength and let you stress the body without dynamic loading.  No one is saying that plyometric work should not be done.  In fact coach believes that dynamic work is where real strength is gained.   However there are very few here at the current moment that would benefit from the plyo due to insufficient basic physical prep.  

 

For reference on dynamic strength please read this old thread https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/1205-maximal-strength-is-not-a-panacea/.

 

Also the exercise like manna come with a long list of progressions that will build and balance the body.  You will not be working specific manna exercises for 3 years.  In fact you will probably spend the majority of your time building up the strength and mobility required to even attempt it.  I guarantee (and so does coach with money back) that this balanced prep will help your free running, parkour, or any other similar movement sport. Most of foundation does not require that much equipment and with a little thinking you can probably perform all exercises in a park.  

 

You already agree that your sport needs a stricter strength program.  This is in addition to the actual movements you want of course.  To be good at any sport it will require time for skill acquisition and strength development.  Doing either independently will eventually leave you at a dead end.  As such you should try to dedicate the time needed to do strength work and consider this separate from your free running times.

 

The goals you mention are very good and I assure you that coach's athletes and most gymnasts excel in these areas.  Again movement will address all of your concerns but it would be beneficial to work on foundation 1 and 2 first so that you can be reasonable free from injury and imbalances.

[Joshua Slocum]

About mana; it is such a high level skill and while it may give some general strength which could be used, it is not a position to work with in parkour. I believe that for some upper body work in parkour you should stop training maximal strength at some point (unless you like freerunning/gymnastics too much). This is because an earlier increased focus on drilling plyometrics would benefit parkour contrary to gymnastics (at least that is my hypothesis, and I cannot say WHEN the turning point would be). I guess this could be discussed too.

Manna serves a very important function in bodyweight programming: it works shoulder extension and retraction, which is essential for balancing out all of the pushing work that you're going to want to do. All of the compression and support work that you do along the way will be directly beneficial for parkour, too.

I'd have to disagree with your hypothesis. Both gymnastics and parkour are predominantly dynamic sports. [Men's artistic] Gymnastics is composed of six events: floor (~90% dynamic movements), pommel horse (100% dynamic), rings (~60% dynamic), parallel bars (~90% dynamic; pretty much 100% dynamic at a higher level), vault (100% dynamic), and high bar (100% dynamic). Gymnasts train static strength and maximal strength primarily as a means to an end - that being the achievement of a high degree of dynamic power. Even on rings, the most strength-dominant event, a large portion of the elements you'll see in a competition require dynamism and explosiveness. The issue is that dynamic strength is largely dependent on possessing a high amount of maximal strength and joint/connective tissue integrity, and this necessitates a large amount of the kind of training you see in Foundation.

I have more comments, but I need to get to practice. I'll write more tonight if the thread hasn't progressed yet.

[Guest AlexanderE]

Nice and thorough answer! You pretty much rounded up the majority of concerns I have regarding foundation and its application.

 

I should be injury free in about 2 months and I plan doing GST (yet to decide foundation, probably eventually will buy it) M/W/F and leave parkour to off-days with sunday as rest day.

 

I believe that building the dynamic strength in parkour could happen earlier than in gymnastics, if you choose to do it as a skill aquisition-like thing. Like when doing actual parkour training muscle up technique as an example. This is neccesary since parkour really evolves around being able to do it, at least from cat leap (feet against wall).

 

How would you guys suggest that I present this to the parkour community? What is the best way to go to? You have tried it on me but to be fair I had always had a thing for gymnastics (muh planche pushup). And some people out there are not capable of understanding the importance of preperation, maybe even physical training. I will take your advice and "use" in some facebook groups and image boards. I might even start a blog on the topic later on (I know, shoot for the stars atleast).

 

Thank you for your advice (so far)

[Guest AlexanderE]

Joshua, is it possible, that parkour still differentiates from gymnastics? Legit question. What I mean here is that the movements practiced in parkour are so basic compared gymnastics (pommelhorse flares, circles and so on vs things like normal vaults). The "basic" strength you need to perform these excersizes are completely different, and I think that MUCH more maximal strength will seem unneccessary in terms of increasing the length of a vault. Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

 

By the way, you guys are amazing. I am not used to people being THIS useful for me Normally people pretend to know better and are keen to hand out advice, else some people know better but will not take time to explain it, so that other people are able to understand. Learning on this board will take me on a journey, for sure.

[GoldenEagle]

The downward slope into the foundation and handstand series starts with the book "Building the Gymnastic Body"

 

Keep in mind that a lot of equipment used in the book can be substituted for other things.....(IE: Pieces of playground equipment for stall bars)

[Guest AlexanderE]

Mention the book "Building the Gymnastic Body" from there they will eventually come to this site.

 

To be honest, when people think that the way to go is 30 pushups, 30 situps, and 30 squats they could not care less about that book (and they do not know it). It is funny, they do not experiment with progressions but right now they are hyped about performing that sequence as HIT training (Hipster International Training - joke, high intensity training). But I think some might listen and that could be the start (:

[Daniel Burnham]

The downward slope into the foundation and handstand series starts with the book "Building the Gymnastic Body"

 

Keep in mind that a lot of equipment used in the book can be substituted for other things.....(IE: Pieces of playground equipment for stall bars)

I cannot recommend Building the Gymnastic Body anymore unless you are a gymnastic coach or similarly experienced with programming bodyweight exercises for athletes at a high level.  It was and is a great book for this purpose but has been completely redone for foundation series with many times the progressions and explicit programming.  Foundation also has the added benefit of containing all related mobility drills that are referenced as liquid steel™ in BtGB.

 

BtGB also does not really have any overlap with the Handstand series.  

[Guest AlexanderE]

If you search for the book on google it pops up on amazon.com, but also as free-to-view and free to download.

[GoldenEagle]

I cannot recommend Building the Gymnastic Body anymore unless you are a gymnastic coach or similarly experienced with programming bodyweight exercises for athletes at a high level.  It was and is a great book for this purpose but has been completely redone for foundation series with many times the progressions and explicit programming.  Foundation also has the added benefit of containing all related mobility drills that are referenced as liquid steel™ in BtGB.

 

BtGB also does not really have any overlap with the Handstand series.  

Hence the reason I used the phrase "Downward slope into."

 

I for one am still using said book for my Gymnastic Strength Training™. I guess I am one of the few you mention.

[Alan Tseng]

Let's take a look at a muscle-up for example.

 

If you want to do a plyometric muscle-up, you should have mastered non-plymoetric muscle-up first because plyometric places more stress on your tendons than non-plyometric exercises.  To perform a non-plyometric muscle-up, you should have mastered pull-ups first, or how else can you bring yourself up the bar?  However, just because you can perform a pull-up for example, it doesn't mean you have pull-ups mastered.  If you didn't master an easy exercise, your joints are not adequately prepared for the harder exercise.  That's what Foundation is for, makes sure you've properly prepare everything.  Prepare your joints, so later on the Movement series allows you to start adding in dynamic work.

[Daniel Burnham]

Hence the reason I used the phrase "Downward slope into."

I for one am still using said book for my Gymnastic Strength Training™. I guess I am one of the few you mention.

Sorry but probably not... Most people still using that book are not familiar but beeline they are and are not getting as much out if GST as try could be. Not saying it's impossible but foundation is many times better.

I was thinking more along the lines of gymnastic coaches who already have relatively prepared kids without mobility issues or other athletes trained along the same lines.

[Sean Whitley]

 

I am looking for a program specifically designed for parkour (a friend has bought foundation 1 and 2), and I wonder if you could help me get somewhere.

 

You say a friend has bought foundation 1 and 2. Why not just try it for a while and see if it helps or not? It won't cost you anything to borrow his copy so there is nothing to lose. You'll know soon enough if its helping or not.

Even if you pick and choose for example the single leg squat and hollow back press progressions and mix it with some of the mobility exercises and something more parkour specific, its worth a try

[GoldenEagle]

Sorry but probably not... Most people still using that book are not familiar but beeline they are and are not getting as much out if GST as try could be. Not saying it's impossible but foundation is many times better.

I was thinking more along the lines of gymnastic coaches who already have relatively prepared kids without mobility issues or other athletes trained along the same lines.

Should I post my current routine as I did my yoga routine? If I recall correctly, Coach created the Foundation courses because a large number of people weren't strong enough for the progressions in BtGB.

 

I haven't looked at the foundation courses yet, however I am willing to bet some of the more advanced dip progressions found in BtGB are also found in F3-F4 and maybe even in the Ring series. If so, Coach took BtGB and broke it down into more sections.

 

Once again..allow me to reiterate the fact that I stated the phrase. "The downward slope into the foundation series and handstand series begins with the book Building the Gymnastic Body."