L-Sit, Leg Lifts and Leg Raises - research question again! Help appreciated!

[Mandy22]

Hey guys! It's me, again. I am still doing research for my thesis. I was asking some boys at my boyfriends gym about abs and stuff, but it seems they don't give a sh*t if they are strong, all they want is LOOK strong.

So I really hope you can help me out here. I have done some research im this forum. That's what I have learned so far: Abs and hip flexors are very important in gymnastics, because for every event you need to be strong in that area. You can not really train just one or the other, both are important and connected in a certain way.

So here is my question:

Taking the L-Sit, the hollow body rock and the hanging leg lift. Do they all work the same type of muscles?

If a person would train nothing but L-Sits and V-Sits and was really good at it, lets say could hold it for 60Secs -would this person also be good at leg lifts although never did them (or just a few times)? Would this person be able to do 60 hollow body rocks? Or would she need to train for that?

Hope you can help, thanks!

[Daniel Burnham]

Doing lsits does not guarantee hollow body strength.  Every movement is a skill and needs to be practiced separately.  

[Connor Davies]

I'm pretty sure if you had a 60s V sit you could do quite a few hanging leg lifts, but I can't imagine someone who had trained for one without doing hanging leg lifts anyway (unless they were somewhere with no overhead bar for like, their whole lives!)

 

This ties in to a fundamental principle of GST.  Building isometric strength will only strengthen a muscle to (i seem to remember) about 15 degrees either side of that ROM.  That is, unless that strength was build at the point of weakest leverage.  So building strength in an L sit wouldn't guarantee you a V sit, but building strength in a V sit would guarantee you an L sit.

 

Edit: I'm pretty sure the same applies to a straddle L.  Anyone know someone who's straddle L sit time is higher than their L sit time?

[Mandy22]

I'm pretty sure if you had a 60s V sit you could do quite a few hanging leg lifts, but I can't imagine someone who had trained for one without doing hanging leg lifts anyway (unless they were somewhere with no overhead bar for like, their whole lives!)

 

This ties in to a fundamental principle of GST.  Building isometric strength will only strengthen a muscle to (i seem to remember) about 15 degrees either side of that ROM.  That is, unless that strength was build at the point of weakest leverage.  So building strength in an L sit wouldn't guarantee you a V sit, but building strength in a V sit would guarantee you an L sit.

 

Edit: I'm pretty sure the same applies to a straddle L.  Anyone know someone who's straddle L sit time is higher than their L sit time?

Thanks!

Ok, but those L to V sit leg lifts are even harder than the full ones, because "everything below 90 degree is rest" I read somewhere, right?

So L-Sits and V-Sits could be compared to L to V Leg Lifts, and this is not a very huge ROM. So if a person could do a 60 secs L-Sit and a 10 Secs V -Sit, he or she should be able to do about 10-15 L to V leg lifts, without having ever trained them?

Am I getting it right?

Hollow body rock might be a little different then...

[Connor Davies]

So if a person could do a 60 secs L-Sit and a 10 Secs V -Sit, he or she should be able to do about 10-15 L to V leg lifts, without having ever trained them?

Am I getting it right?

I don't think it works that way.  Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure L sit lifts are a prerequisite for V sits.  But in theory, maybe?  It's harder to hold that top position than it is to lift into it, but I don't think the rep ranges you've provided would be very accurate.

[Timothy Aiken]

Throwing numbers into what one could do on hanging leg raises, your guess would be as good as mine. L sits are much more intense on the hip flexors, while the V-sit is more tricep and compression.

Ihaven't tested L-sit for time since beginning Foundation, but I recall it being somewhere around 30 seconds, so nothing too impressive. My longest V-sit is about 6-7 seconds. I can only do 5-10 HLL (10 on a fresh day). So double my hold times to your hypothetical, I could probably do 10-15 HLL. 

So, yes they could likely do 10-15 V-L leg lifts, but no guarantee. Hollow body rocks? No guarantee. In my experience, if only V and L sits are trained, I would venture to say no. I have tried 60 hollow body rocks before and I could do them, but before Foundation there is no way I could have done them, even with my L and V sits. It's compressed vs. open, the strength doesn't carry as Daniel said. 

[Mandy22]

Throwing numbers into what one could do on hanging leg raises, your guess would be as good as mine. L sits are much more intense on the hip flexors, while the V-sit is more tricep and compression.

Ihaven't tested L-sit for time since beginning Foundation, but I recall it being somewhere around 30 seconds, so nothing too impressive. My longest V-sit is about 6-7 seconds. I can only do 5-10 HLL (10 on a fresh day). So double my hold times to your hypothetical, I could probably do 10-15 HLL. 

So, yes they could likely do 10-15 V-L leg lifts, but no guarantee. Hollow body rocks? No guarantee. In my experience, if only V and L sits are trained, I would venture to say no. I have tried 60 hollow body rocks before and I could do them, but before Foundation there is no way I could have done them, even with my L and V sits. It's compressed vs. open, the strength doesn't carry as Daniel said. 

Ok, thanks! So although abs and core are somehow connected, you should at least train one open and one "compression" exercise to gain overall strength. L-Sits and V-Sits are tougher than the lifts, because you have to hold this position, but there is no guarantee if you can do one you can do the other one a well. But it is now very likely if you have a person who can do a 60 second L-Sit and a 20 second V-Sit that he or she could not do at least some leg lifts.

@aiken54: are you doing the leg lifts on stall bars?

[Connor Davies]

Ok, thanks! So although abs and core are somehow connected, you should at least train one open and one "compression" exercise to gain overall strength.

Well not it really all comes down to the question of what are you going to be using this strength for?  I know some bodybuilders only use 'open' core exercises like planks because that's the position they want to look good in, when they're standing up straight.

 

If you were trying to build strength for powerlifting, it's different for trying to build strength for throwing, which is different again for trying to build strength for gymnastics.  But remember that the role of the core is to transfer strength between the upper and lower body.  This is why a lever is core intensive: because you're pivoting around the shoulders, and you have to lift the lower body.  This is also why squats and deadlifts work your core: You're lifting something on your upper body, but you're using your lower body to do it.

 

Really any core exercise will work to a degree, and it's all about constantly increasing the intensity in order to continue to build strength.  So V sits might work to begin with, but if your goal is to throw a shotput as far as possible and your core is your weak point, you might need to work a 'heavier' core exercise, like front lever.  (These are bad examples.)  Since the thing you're trying to accomplish is so different to any of the exercises you're using to train for it, you don't have to worry about whether they're 'open' or 'compression' exercises, just that they're getting you the results you need.

 

I will say at this point that I'm not entirely confident that what I've written above is 100% accurate.  Please, if anyone disagrees, let me know.  And Mandy, I don't want to hijack all your threads with bad advice, so don't take what I'm saying as gospel.

 

Anywho....  The reason L sit lifts don't necessarily correlate to hollow rocks is that the movements themselves are so completely different from each other.  Remember, a large portion of strength is neuromuscular efficiency and so there's a skill element involved.  You do 'compression' exercises, (which, by the way, is more referring to active flexibility development than strength development) and you learn how to compress, you do 'rocking' based movements and you learn how to hold a static position under different parameters.

 

So just remember that as with any exercise, it's really just about how much resistance their is.  I've heard of people progressing from L sits to body levers, even though body levers are an 'open' exercise rather than a 'compression' exercise.  Because they'd built up enough strength with L sits, they could still achieve a body lever even though they'd never performed any type of lever work before.

[Timothy Aiken]

I was on stall bars.