Foundation and Technical gymnastics

[Katharina Huemer]

I would like to be a Level7 gymnast in about 2-3 years.

I am in training only 8 hours a week, but the coaches are good, we just don't do a lot of conditioning. Most of my teammates can't even do a straight cartwheel, just me and another one are "aiming" for bigger goals. Unfortunately there is no other gym, but I am sure I can make it there too.

 

As I really want to get stronger, I am doing Foundation 3 days a week, mostly on training free days.

I was wondering how strong a Level6/7 gymnast needs to be in order to not get injured so easily and to be able to learn skills quicker? I guess, if you have a good core strength and a press handstand, it will be a lot easier to do cast handstands etc.!

Will Foundation 2 be enough? I guess the main focus should be on pull-ups, core strength and wrist conditioning?

Of course, I am talking about Women's Gymnastics.

Thank you!

[Matthew Barrett]

 

I am in training only 8 hours a week, but the coaches are good, we just don't do a lot of conditioning.

 

Obviously being physically prepared for skills is necessary but you can not expect physical preparation to make up for a lack of technical preparation on the part of your coaches.  If they do not condition you enough then they are not that good.

Most of my teammates can't even do a straight cartwheel,

 

And now you're scaring me.  If your coaches can not teach a straight cartwheel on the floor, how can you trust them to safely instruct you on other acrobatic skills on apparatuses such as the beam and bars?

 

 

Sorry this is not a very helpful post but if you really love gymnastics and want to continue in it then you should find a reputable gym if possible.  

[Blairbob]

 If they do not condition you enough then they are not that good.I have heard of some programs that just cannot offer a lot of training days or hours in their optional program. Variety of reasons. One of my coworkers once told me she competed HS gymnastics and L8 on about 8hours/week. I can't remember if she also doing multisports in HS but she was fairly talented. This was probably 10-15 years ago when L8 was more difficult I think.

Well really a L6/7 doesn't actually have to be too strong to compete the routines. A lot of will depend if you want to be scoring 36's or 30's.

Let's ideally you would be competing a FrontHandspring Front Tuck, a Back Layout, a kip to horizontal clear hip with a tuck flyaway and probably something like Back Walkover or Back Handspring on Beam besides  a front salto dismount.

Ideally you would cast to about 30 degrees above horizontal. I mean a straight cast HS would be great but if you can cast to about 30-45 degrees above horizontal and have decent hip straddle flexibility, you can probably get a straddle cast HS high enough to drop into a giant. This is where having a straddle press HS really helps but as long as you understand the mechanics of it and can cast straddle on, you can nearly straddle cast HS.

 

Ideally, a L6/7 would be training at least 12-3 hours a week if not 16 or so. A good WAG program will be spending about 25-33% of their time on strength and conditioning. Often they will be doing strength drills as side stations on bars besides bar warmups and beam warmups and floor warmups.

Ideally I'd like a L6/7 to be able to climb the rope in straddle or L, do floor press handstands without a problem even if they are taller teens. L-sit 1min and do 10-15 Hanging leg lifts and be able to do 3-5 from L to V. It'd be great if they could do 5-10 dips or headstand pushups, even off a box instead of a wall. The stronger the shoulders and triceps are, the better chances of casting higher. Also have to be strong enough in the lower back (Reverse Leg lifts, bouncing HS pike downs) to heel drive in the cast.

 

The strength standards we set for our L6/7 were actually much higher than that as are Geddart's as well (Jordan Weiber's coach who has own S&C program he markets for WAG) but the most important thing is the skillset.

You can get away with a weak bar or beam routine and just a handspring on vault or 1/2 on, 1/2 off or handspring full but you still need to be powerful enough to be able to do a punch front on floor besides FHS Front tuck as well RO BHS Back Tuck/Layout.

TBH, there are plenty of girls in the Xcel system who compete around L6/7 and only train 8 hours or so a week. Between 6-10. However, a lot of the girls tend to be pretty athletic naturally if they have clean advanced tumbling and vault.

[jpow]

What level are you now?

 

Basic level 7 routines are

 

Vault - FHS

 

Bars - Kip Cast HS, Clear Hip, Kip Cast Squat On.

Kip Cast HS, Giant, Giant, Layout Flyaway

 

Beam - Press HS mount.  Back Walkover + BHS.  Roundoff/Cartwheel + Back Tuck Dismount, or Front Tuck Dismount

 

Floor - RO + BHS + Layout, FHS + Front Tuck, RO + BHS + Back Tuck

 

Tons of handstand and press handstand work will probably be the most benefit.  But remember, don't start chunking skills.  Make sure each skill is mastered before moving to the next skill.  

[Katharina Huemer]

What level are you now?

 

Basic level 7 routines are

 

Vault - FHS

 

Bars - Kip Cast HS, Clear Hip, Kip Cast Squat On.

Kip Cast HS, Giant, Giant, Layout Flyaway

 

Beam - Press HS mount.  Back Walkover + BHS.  Roundoff/Cartwheel + Back Tuck Dismount, or Front Tuck Dismount

 

Floor - RO + BHS + Layout, FHS + Front Tuck, RO + BHS + Back Tuck

 

Tons of handstand and press handstand work will probably be the most benefit.  But remember, don't start chunking skills.  Make sure each skill is mastered before moving to the next skill.  

Thank you for your answer!

I want to have exactly all the skills you listed, maybe I want to have a RO BH Full an Tumble Trak or Air Track and a Tsuk on Vault. But everything else is exactly what you said

I don't know, I would say I am around Level 4/5.

I am training 8 hours a week since September, so for 8 months now.

Floor: RO BT, RO BH, Front Handspring, amost running front tuck, almost standing back tuck

Vault: FH

Bars: pullover, back hip circle, front hip circle, glide kip, squat on. My cast is probably a little bit over 90 degrees

Beam: Cartwheel

Strength: 5 pull-ups, 5 leg lifts on stall bars, standing straddle press, 25secs L-Sit on floor

Flexibility: all splits (10 inch oversplit on front splits), good bridge (walkovers, front limber)

 

[Katharina Huemer]

 If they do not condition you enough then they are not that good.I have heard of some programs that just cannot offer a lot of training days or hours in their optional program. Variety of reasons. One of my coworkers once told me she competed HS gymnastics and L8 on about 8hours/week. I can't remember if she also doing multisports in HS but she was fairly talented. This was probably 10-15 years ago when L8 was more difficult I think.

Well really a L6/7 doesn't actually have to be too strong to compete the routines. A lot of will depend if you want to be scoring 36's or 30's.

Let's ideally you would be competing a FrontHandspring Front Tuck, a Back Layout, a kip to horizontal clear hip with a tuck flyaway and probably something like Back Walkover or Back Handspring on Beam besides  a front salto dismount.

Ideally you would cast to about 30 degrees above horizontal. I mean a straight cast HS would be great but if you can cast to about 30-45 degrees above horizontal and have decent hip straddle flexibility, you can probably get a straddle cast HS high enough to drop into a giant. This is where having a straddle press HS really helps but as long as you understand the mechanics of it and can cast straddle on, you can nearly straddle cast HS.

 

Ideally, a L6/7 would be training at least 12-3 hours a week if not 16 or so. A good WAG program will be spending about 25-33% of their time on strength and conditioning. Often they will be doing strength drills as side stations on bars besides bar warmups and beam warmups and floor warmups.

Ideally I'd like a L6/7 to be able to climb the rope in straddle or L, do floor press handstands without a problem even if they are taller teens. L-sit 1min and do 10-15 Hanging leg lifts and be able to do 3-5 from L to V. It'd be great if they could do 5-10 dips or headstand pushups, even off a box instead of a wall. The stronger the shoulders and triceps are, the better chances of casting higher. Also have to be strong enough in the lower back (Reverse Leg lifts, bouncing HS pike downs) to heel drive in the cast.

 

The strength standards we set for our L6/7 were actually much higher than that as are Geddart's as well (Jordan Weiber's coach who has own S&C program he markets for WAG) but the most important thing is the skillset.

You can get away with a weak bar or beam routine and just a handspring on vault or 1/2 on, 1/2 off or handspring full but you still need to be powerful enough to be able to do a punch front on floor besides FHS Front tuck as well RO BHS Back Tuck/Layout.

TBH, there are plenty of girls in the Xcel system who compete around L6/7 and only train 8 hours or so a week. Between 6-10. However, a lot of the girls tend to be pretty athletic naturally if they have clean advanced tumbling and vault.

Thanks a lot for your very detailed answer!

I want to have all the skills jpow listed below...

 

Vault - FHS / maybe tsuk

 

Bars - Kip Cast HS, Clear Hip to Handstand, Kip Cast Squat On,

Kip Cast HS, Giant, Giant, Layout Flyaway

 

Beam - Press HS mount.  Back Walkover + BHS.  Roundoff/Cartwheel + Back Tuck Dismount, or Front Tuck Dismount

 

Floor - RO + BHS + Layout, FHS + Front Tuck, RO + BHS + Back Tuck, maybe RO + BH + Full on Tumbl Trak

What strength standards does your gym, or gyms in general set for L7's? How strong is a good L7 gymnast?

I read a post on another forum, in which was written, that the L7 girls should be able to do 10 pull-ups, 20 leg lifts and 30 push-ups...

[jpow]

 

I read a post on another forum, in which was written, that the L7 girls should be able to do 10 pull-ups, 20 leg lifts and 30 push-ups...

 

 Definitely more than this.  Our level three gymnasts do two sets of ten pull ups before they even touch bars for their routines.  

 

I would suggest at least 20 pull-ups, 50 leg lifts, and 75 pushups.  But instead of just working strength exercises like this, again I would suggest to do tons of press handstand and handstand holds.  They'll be more beneficial for you in the long run.  

[Blairbob]

JPOW. Maybe those are the new L7 which I'm vague with off the top of my head. I don't know what the base minimum is now but those routines you stated would have been an Ideal L7 routine in the old L7.

Well, ideally I'd like to have any L7 of mine be competing in TOPS or HOPES and doing well. That's the ideal.

 

50 Hanging Leg lifts sounds great but to be honest I'd probably have never have a kid who would want to do that many unless there was a serious award that they wanted. Maybe the odd kid might try though.

 

I'm not currently coaching right now.

A good L7?

Up the rope in L 3-5x in a row.

10 stalder press HS. 5-10 L press HS.

 

Tuck planche hold

 

15-20 dips.

20 Pullups, could care less as I care more about rope climb.

 

10 Chin to cradle on bars, straight body. Medium tempo versus just bouncing.

 

10-15 L to V HLL.

 

Solid standing back flip. This tells me good leg power and ab strength. One that doesn't whip back or travel much. Possibly up to panel mats.

 

BS/DL 1.5x BW Estimated 1r is fine.

 

Can do L-sit, straddle-L, hollow/arch/planks until they are boring.



Your progress is well for someone who has only been doing it for 8 months.

[Katharina Huemer]

Thanks a lot for your very detailed answer!

I want to have all the skills jpow listed below...

 

Vault - FHS / maybe tsuk

 

Bars - Kip Cast HS, Clear Hip to Handstand, Kip Cast Squat On,

Kip Cast HS, Giant, Giant, Layout Flyaway

 

Beam - Press HS mount.  Back Walkover + BHS.  Roundoff/Cartwheel + Back Tuck Dismount, or Front Tuck Dismount

 

Floor - RO + BHS + Layout, FHS + Front Tuck, RO + BHS + Back Tuck, maybe RO + BH + Full on Tumbl Trak

What strength standards does your gym, or gyms in general set for L7's? How strong is a good L7 gymnast?

I read a post on another forum, in which was written, that the L7 girls should be able to do 10 pull-ups, 20 leg lifts and 30 push-ups...

 

 

 Definitely more than this.  Our level three gymnasts do two sets of ten pull ups before they even touch bars for their routines.  

 

I would suggest at least 20 pull-ups, 50 leg lifts, and 75 pushups.  But instead of just working strength exercises like this, again I would suggest to do tons of press handstand and handstand holds.  They'll be more beneficial for you in the long run.  

Whaaaaaat?? Do you mean 20 pull-ups, 50 leg lifts etc in a row or can it be 3x10 pull-ups with a short break in between?

 

[Blairbob]

 Pretty sure he means 20 pullups in a row without a stop though I think 50 HLL in a row sounds wacky. 

[Katharina Huemer]

JPOW. Maybe those are the new L7 which I'm vague with off the top of my head. I don't know what the base minimum is now but those routines you stated would have been an Ideal L7 routine in the old L7.

Thanks for your answer!

Are the routines I stated new L6 and  old L7?

So what would you recommend? Working on pull-ups, leg lifts, push-ups, L-Sitsand presses every other day until I am at about the level you listed? (I think I might go for just 10 pull-ups and 2 straddle preese as I am not that competetive!)

 

[Seabird]

Blairbob, what would you consider to be the levels of strength for a male athlete at levels 6-10?

[Katharina Huemer]

I think that there is a huge lack of information on the internet in terms of strength training for gymnasts. 
Unless you are not training at a gym where you get all the conditioning and prep done for being a good gymnast of the level that you desire, there is almost no way to be able to gain the same amount of strength and body awareness at home!
DrillsandSkills is great, but no one tells you the amount of sets+reps and the frequency of an exercise 
I hope that Foundation2 plus press Handstands will make me strong enough for being a good Level7!

@Seabird
I hope that BlairBob is going to answer your question. I don't know exactly, but at our gym we have one male athlete, I would say he is a Level7/8, he started at age 17 and now he is 30.
He can do various L to handstands on the p-bars, about 10 muscle-ups on rings, tons of pull-ups (maybe 30?) and he does hollow back presses in sleep!   
 

[Blairbob]

Seabird. That is a tough question to answer and could be very long winded. While I have seen a lot of different programs set this or that standard for their WAG levels, MAG is very different. For the most part, up to L10 the girls pretty much compete the same elements across the board. That means L7's pretty much all compete the same thing as do 8's though it fleshes out a lot more at L9/10. 

 

Obviously L6/7 in MAG are compulsory but L9/10 routines can really vary because at that point some guys are AAers and some are turning into specialists where they may excel at one or a couple events and do meagerly or average at others.

 

Even amongst L9/10/US Collegiate athletes they won't have the same skillsets or strengths. Some may be ring specialists, or pommel or bar specialists or tumblers, etc and it's hard to say they need this or that much strength since their routines can be so much more flexible.

 

Ideally a L6 boy could probably do at least 15-20 pullups but I've known some who aren't very strong and are decent L6's. 10-20 dips, 5-10 HeSPU, 3-4 Press HS, 10 pistols per leg (why not though I've known excellent L6's who could barely do a few because their flexibility was poor but they were strong and powerful). Ideally they would be working on adv tuck versions of the 3 levers and pretty solid L/Straddle L-sit holds of 30-60s with the ability to do 10 HLL and 10 skin the cats besides climb rope legless 1-2x in a row.

In my boy's programs, I really only set standards for levels 3-5 a long time ago and eventually switched to more of a star system of strength achievements than being concerned if they hit X amount of strength movement per level.

 

A decent L10 can probably do both levers, possibly a straddle planche ideally a cross, L press HS on floor or straddle L. climb the rope 3-5 times in L, probably do way more pullups, dips and pushups than they ever would want to try. 30 pullups, 50-100 dips, 10 HSPU, 20 HLL besides being explosive enough to do standing back flips up to panel mats. A L9 just take it down a notch or two.

L7 bump the L6 strength requirements up and L8 no idea because it's often where kids will skip L7 because they are over 13 or they simply are not old enough or have the skills for L9.