gogy Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 What do you guys think about this guy, is he good if we look at him as gymnast ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romain Laine Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 All I can say is that :- He is really, really strong (I love the movement at 2'20)- it is street workout so you can't and should not compare it to gymnastic. Different sports, different way of judging. As an example in gymnastic you look for the perfect position at all time and judges can spot the little mistakes that an unexperienced spectator won't see.In street workout you look for more showy moves that will impress the audience (even if sometimes the form suffers). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 it's not needed to much comparison, look to protraction and hollow position in both planche and maltese.gymnast have them, sadkov not.maintain a certain position with this body alignment is a matter of specific strength development. his flag is not correct, his handstand is very poor in therms of quality.his quality standards are quite low compared to gymnast. the idea of think "he has to impress the audience" is really a bad excuse to perform low quality skills.think to the squat or deadlift, if you work for hypertrophy or weightlifting or powerlifting or as an amateur lifter or as a crossfit player. there is only one technique and one good conditioning progression. there is one journey that leads to high quality results for high quality standards. "the context should not change the learning process." 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 it's not needed to much comparison, look to protraction and hollow position in both planche and maltese.gymnast have them, sadkov not.maintain a certain position with this body alignment is a matter of specific strength development. his flag is not correct, his handstand is very poor in therms of quality.his quality standards are quite low compared to gymnast. the idea of think "he has to impress the audience" is really a bad excuse to perform low quality skills.think to the squat or deadlift, if you work for hypertrophy or weightlifting or powerlifting or as an amateur lifter or as a crossfit player. there is only one technique and one good conditioning progression. there is one journey that leads to high quality results for high quality standards. "the context should not change the learning process."You're speaking as if all gymnasts are high quality or do everything great. I've seen some gymnasts with some bad gymnastics skills too. Sadkov's scapulae is protracted in the maltese and planche, it's just that it is winging which may be caused by his scoliosis or another condition. So he is at an disadvantage, but still can hold a maltese with straight body which is very impressive. His recent videos have cleaner form than last year and it is not perfect, but not low quality either. Some clips in the video above were from last year so some were sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 You can look over the european rings final on sofia and check how many person arch in those position.aside carmona that is a old shool position the other are always hollowed or straight.i'm not surprised by that SW guys do not follow the proper progressions, and i know that simply because in the gym where i teach gymnastic there are at least 10 people performing SW and they are far less stronger then the young kids who follow correct progressionwe can simply compare high level sw with high level gymnast. i think the difference is quite high. sadkov is strong, very strong, but very far of demonstrate the same quality of a gymnast. this comparison will solve any doubts. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 That picture of Sadkov's maltese is from last year that's why it's more arched. Check out the OP video of his malteses at 1:18, 1:33, and 1:47-1:50. Those are far less arched. Ri Se Gwang (the gymnast in the photo you showed) arched a little near the end of that maltese (you can see in a video) too. I saw Brandon Wynn and Danny Rodrigues (both are elite rings specialists) perform arched floor malteses before. I also saw Fabien Hambuchen perform a bad form rings planche in his rings practice and I saw Matteo Morandi execute slightly arched maltese in London Olympics. There are also many gymnasts who can't even do floor malteses and not all gymnasts are rings specialists. Sometimes elite gymnasts make mistakes too. I know high level gymnasts who have done a lot of rings strength or GST are stronger than the best street workout athletes we see on youtube, but that is not the argument. You were comparing Sadkov's planche and maltese to some gymnasts with his older malteses and planches which isn't really fair because he has since improved his form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Nogueira Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I think that's the key difference. Gymnastics is a codified sport with rules with regards to it's positions so you're not going to see high level gymnasts with many technical errors in a planche for example. Or any position that they compete as it would be pointless to put into a routine a position that you can't do correctly. Innovation is also more controlled as I understand there's no point to making an awesome move that's not in the code of points. Street workout as I understand it is more open to creativity and individual variation, but from a gymnastic stand point the skills presented will have no form standard because they don't have a code of points nor strict guidelines to what makes a position "correct". Maybe Sadkov can do a planche with hollow and protraction but even in that case it's likely that he doesn't care as for his sport doesn't call for that. On the other hand that behind the back clap planche pushup which, arched planche aside, is still damned impressive. Youtube videos aside, in a way, SW is still very much in it's infancy, so coaching knowledge and progressions are not very evolved when compared with modern gymnastics which has come a long way since the first Olympics. So in my opinion, yeah gymnastics will display far cleaner skills and the progressions are more sound as proper form develops proper strength but you'll sometimes see pretty impressive stuff in SW as people work on skills more unique to them. SW is still making it's first steps but I expect that when it starts getting real big (read with big $$$ prizes) SW people will start to turn to gymnastics training as it has the accumulated knowledge that SW doesn't yet have. I hope that as SW continues to evolve at a very high level, it'll have athletes who can display skills with good form but can throw in their individual expressiveness into the moves. As much as I like gymnastics, the one thing that it kinda of lacks is that room for creativity when compared to some other sports. It's very much a sport of discipline, work ethic and absolute concentration (though it must be fun when a spur of the moment thing happens and it works ). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I agree with dritar. Street workout should have a code of point to judge skills instead of judges giving out opinionated scores for it to become a real sport. If it does then it would become "street gymnastics" since you see guys throw in acrobatic skills in addition to strength skills. You can see more and more street workout athletes performing with better form over the years. Compare street workout 2009 to street workout 2014 and you can see the changes. Of course there are still a lot of people training with bad form and quantity over quality, but the better street workout guys most likely changed that approach for themselves with proper progressions and I will bet more and more will follow over time as they become more aware and change their approach. I'm hoping Crossfit will change for the better too when more crossfitters become interested in quality over quantity or at least a good balance of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Laukkavaara Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 comparing street workout to gymnastics is like comparing crossfit to strongmen. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 "so coaching knowledge and progressions are not very evolved when compared with modern gymnastics which has come a long way since the first Olympics." this point does not makes sense, the context does not change the process.if you want to perform a planche in a gymnastic competition, or at the park or in a SW compeition. there is one LOGIC , CORRECT and NATURAL progression. that is used in gymnastic that is the mother of bodyweight training. think that the context could change the way to learn is absolutely wrong, and a demonstration of that is difference in therms of quality.i've seen by myself (since i've trained with him) Morandi perform maltese on floor and maltese press to jap handstand. and there is no arched back. so if we want to compare high level SW guys , let's compare them with high level gymnasts as morandi , yibing or van gelder. there is no comparison. the fact that the SW guys are solving the posture problem with planche or maltese (i'm seeing the same quality video over video) is a proof that their approach to BW is not correct. you need to evolve on solid bases, not evolve and then correct the bases. this does not make sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Pavlovic Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I heard that Sadkov was a gymnast for long time, untile sw become popular. If thats truth than his maltese planche really sucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Nogueira Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 "so coaching knowledge and progressions are not very evolved when compared with modern gymnastics which has come a long way since the first Olympics." this point does not makes sense, the context does not change the process.if you want to perform a planche in a gymnastic competition, or at the park or in a SW compeition. there is one LOGIC , CORRECT and NATURAL progression. that is used in gymnastic that is the mother of bodyweight training. think that the context could change the way to learn is absolutely wrong, and a demonstration of that is difference in therms of quality.i've seen by myself (since i've trained with him) Morandi perform maltese on floor and maltese press to jap handstand. and there is no arched back. so if we want to compare high level SW guys , let's compare them with high level gymnasts as morandi , yibing or van gelder. there is no comparison. the fact that the SW guys are solving the posture problem with planche or maltese (i'm seeing the same quality video over video) is a proof that their approach to BW is not correct. you need to evolve on solid bases, not evolve and then correct the bases. this does not make sense.What I meant, is that it seems to me that most SW guys are self taught and not coached, so they are not aware of the correct progressions and likely they may not be aware what is the correct form is for some shapes. I imagine that as SW becomes more widespread people someone will start looking into the gymnastics body of knowledge and use it as it has been around much longer. And then everyone will have to use it to stay competitive. However I disagree with you in a minor point, which is that the progressions are natural. They are correct but it took a lot of coaching experience to arrive at them. Looking at Foundation stuff for example some of the stuff is obvious once you look at it, but I'd never have had figured it out on my own. It's like what Coach said with regards to Crossfit in the podcast. At the beginning everyone was doing Crossfit HQ programming. Then the athletes that started doing well in games where the ones doing correct strength training with weights. Now everyone is doing it. Perhaps the next athletes who'll gain an edge will be ones doing correct GST training in order to excel at the rope climbing events. I imagine something similar might with street workout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 the foundations are what the most natural and biomechanically correct you could fine. there no secrets, everythings turns around the concept of leverage, weight, force and joints conditioning. if you don't know how do something you have to options:1-continue with bad forms and accept the consequence of that2-inform yourself about who provides the necessary information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Dierl Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Something I noticed whether it was tricking, parkour, street workout, break dancing or whatever that required a substantial development of the body, the gymnastics approach pretty much has it covered. I mean from what I've seen so far (I was never a gymnast when I was younger), seriously gymnasts are really the most versatile bunch of athletes I've seen. I got started in street workout for a short while before I started on more structured training, mostly elementary hand balancing and now following the GST approach. While we can argue about other ways (sw, parkour etc), my take will be proper GST approach for building up a body SAFELY (this seriously must be emphasised). How much spice and flair you want to add on (SW, parkour, tricking etc) later is up to you once a proper foundation has been built.In the SW community over here, they believe getting tendonitis is part of the progress and they are looked on by younger people. It is quite hard to get them to take a step back and built foundations as it isn't 'cool'. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 "so coaching knowledge and progressions are not very evolved when compared with modern gymnastics which has come a long way since the first Olympics." this point does not makes sense, the context does not change the process.if you want to perform a planche in a gymnastic competition, or at the park or in a SW compeition. there is one LOGIC , CORRECT and NATURAL progression. that is used in gymnastic that is the mother of bodyweight training. think that the context could change the way to learn is absolutely wrong, and a demonstration of that is difference in therms of quality.i've seen by myself (since i've trained with him) Morandi perform maltese on floor and maltese press to jap handstand. and there is no arched back. so if we want to compare high level SW guys , let's compare them with high level gymnasts as morandi , yibing or van gelder. there is no comparison. the fact that the SW guys are solving the posture problem with planche or maltese (i'm seeing the same quality video over video) is a proof that their approach to BW is not correct. you need to evolve on solid bases, not evolve and then correct the bases. this does not make sense.First of all, no one is arguing that the best street workout athletes are near as strong as high level rings specialists and the stronger gymnasts nor are the average street workout athletes comparable to the average gymnasts in terms of strength and quality of form. This thread should be about Sadkov and not the whole street workout community since there are guys there who have better form than Sadkov as well as guys that have poorer form than him. I don't know what street workout videos you have been seeing, but the ones that I have recently seen has had much better form and body posture in the malteses and planches than the ones from years before when street workout first became popular on the internet so you can't really say they haven't changed over the years. Even among high level rings specialists and other gymnasts, they sometimes arch, pike, or sag in their planches and malteses too (I'm sure they can do it perfectly sometimes). Look at the examples below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Those photos above aren't too different from Sadkov's malteses this year. I'm sure Sadkov would get credit for it with minor deductions if he performed those in a gymnastics floor exercise. For reference, these are what I consider picture perfect below: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Schult Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 i dont understand the problem with this arched back? i mean what is the problem, a maltese is a maltese and a planche is a planche? if one is arched it doesnt matter? why making the exercise even harder and hollow in it? thats like saying go retract your shoulders because it makes it harder? where is the logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavio85 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 i dont understand the problem with this arched back? i mean what is the problem, a maltese is a maltese and a planche is a planche? if one is arched it doesnt matter? why making the exercise even harder and hollow in it? thats like saying go retract your shoulders because it makes it harder? where is the logic?A "banana handstand" and a hollow handstand are not the same thing Form does matter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 i dont understand the problem with this arched back? i mean what is the problem, a maltese is a maltese and a planche is a planche? if one is arched it doesnt matter? why making the exercise even harder and hollow in it? thats like saying go retract your shoulders because it makes it harder? where is the logic?Arching is a flaw just like piking or high/low hips. It makes the skill easier and look less aesthetic so you will get deductions from a judge and if it's too bad then you won't get credit for the skill. Even if you are not competing, you should still strive for perfection to maximize strength gains. Retraction in a planche and maltese makes it a lot harder than if you were protracted so that's why you should protract to use your strength optimally there. I don't think judges care if you are protracted or retracted in competition, but I may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Schult Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Arching is a flaw just like piking or high/low hips. It makes the skill easier and look less aesthetic so you will get deductions from a judge and if it's too bad then you won't get credit for the skill. Even if you are not competing, you should still strive for perfection to maximize strength gains. Retraction in a planche and maltese makes it a lot harder than if you were protracted so that's why you should protract to use your strength optimally there. I don't think judges care if you are protracted or retracted in competition, but I may be wrong.i know that it makes the exercise harder if you retract thats why i said why should you hollow if it makes it harder but not retract your shoulders then. it would be the same logic. its just the judges optinion on the skill but there is no right or wrong? also i think this streetworkout bashing is a little on the wrong place here. this guy is probably stronger than more than 99% of the people on this forum. so why this bashing of "follow the right progression blabla" ? i think if he wanted to he would do it the gymnastic way but he just doesnt need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Pavlovic Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 ...i think if he wanted to he would do it the gymnastic way but he just doesnt need to.He was in gymnastics untile sw become popular. He probably saw that in sw he can make lot of money, he could do the same in gymnastics if he was so good but as you see he isnt a gymnist any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Pavlovic Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 i dont understand the problem with this arched back? i mean what is the problem, a maltese is a maltese and a planche is a planche? if one is arched it doesnt matter? why making the exercise even harder and hollow in it? thats like saying go retract your shoulders because it makes it harder? where is the logic?Lol, its like saying half rep pullups are easier and i'll do them instead a full room pullups. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Schult Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Lol, its like saying half rep pullups are easier and i'll do them instead a full room pullups. no it's not. you just don't get it. if you think an arched maltese is easy then go do it, lol. and video please or didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Pavlovic Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 no it's not. you just don't get it. if you think an arched maltese is easy then go do it, lol. and video please or didn't happen.I dont say its easier for everybody, but maybe for him it is easier, otherwise why would he train something wrong if he can do it in perfect form and its easier.Usualy for people how train in wrong form will be easier to do wrong form then perfect form, i think the same is with Sadkov.And i cant still do maltese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavio85 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I dont say its easier for everybody, but maybe for him it is easier, otherwise why would he train something wrong if he can do it in perfect form and its easier.Usualy for people how train in wrong form will be easier to do wrong form then perfect form, i think the same is with Sadkov.And i cant still do maltese. maybe he trained it that way because he didn't know the proper form. but if he was a gymnast he probably finds it easier to do it arched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now