Back Lever to Front Lever to Planche

[Hannibal Ahmed]

I've already posted a question on Planches, but this is another.  My end point as of right now is performing a Full Planche, and I'm no where near that spot. I'm way out of that league right now.  So I heard that the general progression of strength for a gymnast is that you master the back lever, then the front lever, then the planche, so I figured that I should focus on mastering those three, in that order.  Instead of doing planche work when I can't even do a full back lever. Right?

[Daniel Burnham]

Nope. Three should be worked mostly in tandem. No need to focus on one at a time.

Of course you need to be using progressive exercises to avoid injury and have maximum carry over.

[Coach Sommer]

As a beginner, I recommend that you do not train the back lever - due to mobility and strength deficiencies in the biceps.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Daniel Burnham]

  On 7/22/2014 at 4:03 AM, Coach Sommer said:

As a beginner, I recommend that you do not train the back lever - due to mobility and strength deficiencies in the biceps.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I shouldn't have left this out.

People have found the back lever to be easiest in terms of raw strength required. However trying to do this without prepared elbows can and will lead to injury. Several on this forum have had their training set back years from elbow strains and bicep tears.

[Farid Mirkhani]

When would it be safe to start training the back lever? After mastery of the German hang?

Also, what exercise/skill would you guys recommend to substitute the back lever for lower back strength (that is also achievable by a so called beginner). The best one I can think of is headstand leg lifts.

[Alan Tseng]

  On 7/22/2014 at 6:46 AM, Paulizdaman said:

When would it be safe to start training the back lever? After mastery of the German hang?

Also, what exercise/skill would you guys recommend to substitute the back lever for lower back strength (that is also achievable by a so called beginner). The best one I can think of is headstand leg lifts.

Back lever training is recommended after entire Foundation series is mastered (which means mastered full Front Lever and Straddle Planche, among other exercises).

 

The Side Lever progressions in Foundation will develop your lower back

[Alexander Egebak]

  On 7/22/2014 at 6:46 AM, Paulizdaman said:

When would it be safe to start training the back lever? After mastery of the German hang?

Also, what exercise/skill would you guys recommend to substitute the back lever for lower back strength (that is also achievable by a so called beginner). The best one I can think of is headstand leg lifts.

So will some planche progressions, to some extent.

[Groundshaker]

Can I still do assisted german hangs and german hangs, so that my body gets used to the movement when I actually start to train for back lever?
Or is that allready considered to be a back lever training?

[Emirking Stillalive]

I learned full back lever first, i was thinking just like you because i heard people saying back lever is one of the easiest skill to learn.

Now, i don't have much benefit from it, my core strength is way ahead of my shoulder and lat strength. In my opinion you should work on your shoulder and lat strength first, your core will get stronger anyways as you progress further with planche and front lever.

And you will have better visual perception of hollow body while learning those two skills. You can work on all three together also, just make sure to take it very slowly. And hold skills for time, don't just jump into progression that you can barely hold for 1-2 seconds.

Edited July 22, 2014 by GORIZONT

[Alexander Egebak]

  On 7/22/2014 at 9:59 AM, Groundshaker said:

Can I still do assisted german hangs and german hangs, so that my body gets used to the movement when I actually start to train for back lever?

Or is that allready considered to be a back lever training?

Hmm, you can do band-assisted german hangs to protect your elbows. How well are your elbows and biceps conditioned? I guess it would be okay to do that if only your elbows are well enough prepared. But I am not really in a position to say so. All I know is that once you have completed foundation 4 german hangs will be a breeze to master since you are very strong and have flexible shoulders. So there is not much point in doing german hangs before atleast at the end of F4.

[Groundshaker]

  On 7/22/2014 at 4:15 PM, Freshpro said:

Hmm, you can do band-assisted german hangs to protect your elbows. How well are your elbows and biceps conditioned? I guess it would be okay to do that if only your elbows are well enough prepared. But I am not really in a position to say so. All I know is that once you have completed foundation 4 german hangs will be a breeze to master since you are very strong and have flexible shoulders. So there is not much point in doing german hangs before atleast at the end of F4.

I broke my left arm in the elbow when I was really young and the doctors put the bone in the wrong place, so my left elbow is in a pretty bad shape. Just recently I started to do push ups without pain in it. (I still can't do dips)

But when doing assisted german hang I feel really good stretch on my shoulder and just little bit on my left bicep. I dont feel any pain or any tension in the elbows after getting out of that position.

It's just a really good feeling and I don't want to stop doing them because I feel like my shoulders are getting much more flexible, but if you think that I can get injured from doing them, then I'm going to stop.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Groundshaker

[Alexander Egebak]

  On 7/23/2014 at 11:36 AM, Groundshaker said:

I broke my left arm in the elbow when I was really young and the doctors put the bone in the wrong place, so my left elbow is in a pretty bad shape. Just recently I started to do push ups without pain in it. (I still can't do dips)

But when doing assisted german hang I feel really good stretch on my shoulder and just little bit on my left bicep. I dont feel any pain or any tension in the elbows after getting out of that position.

It's just a really good feeling and I don't want to stop doing them because I feel like my shoulders are getting much more flexible, but if you think that I can get injured from doing them, then I'm going to stop.

I would not do them, too risky with your injury history.

[Hannibal Ahmed]

Thanks for all of the insight everyone

[hype]

hey, sorry to hijack this thread lol.. 

 

but you said that all static positions should be worked simultaneously? 

Cause i was thinking of mastering back lever and l-sit, and only after start working front lever and planche.. Wouldn't mastering these 2 mouvements before make planche and front lever easier?

 

Btw, my elbow and all are pretty solid I don'T feel any sort of pain when doing back lever, this might be due to the fact that I spent a year doing tons of pull ups. dips and pushups (my records are 25, 40, 60 respectively)

[Alexander Egebak]

  On 7/27/2014 at 6:45 PM, hype said:

hey, sorry to hijack this thread lol.. 

 

but you said that all static positions should be worked simultaneously? 

Cause i was thinking of mastering back lever and l-sit, and only after start working front lever and planche.. Wouldn't mastering these 2 mouvements before make planche and front lever easier?

 

Btw, my elbow and all are pretty solid I don'T feel any sort of pain when doing back lever, this might be due to the fact that I spent a year doing tons of pull ups. dips and pushups (my records are 25, 40, 60 respectively)

I will refrain to comment on the backlever part since it is already clear why it should NOT be trained until mastery of the entire F series.

 

About static positions there are plenty of programming options to choose from; full body workout, push-pull split etc. If everything is worked in one day one must decrease training days to 3max a week (maybe 4 if you are used to the load and know that you have a decent recovery ability).

 

About how to achieve your planche and front lever the best way possible; buy foundation.

[hype]

Hmm I see, I'm currently training 4 days a week and only the planche and front lever.. Basically I thought static straight arm training should last about 15 min in the beginning of your workout (I read this somewhere, don't remember where) and training more than 2 elements would make it last way more than 15 min. That's why I skipped back lever and l-sit

On every one of those 4 days (mon, tues, thurs and frid) I start with planche and front lever work, and then i do 1 pulling, 1 pressing, and 1 core exercise. I dedicate all Wednesday and saturday for legs only.

Does that sound good or am I missing some things? And should I add backlever and l-sit training along with my FL and PL? (considering I'm young ans have very healthy joints)

Edited July 27, 2014 by hype

[Hannibal Ahmed]

  On 7/27/2014 at 6:45 PM, hype said:

hey, sorry to hijack this thread lol.. 

 

but you said that all static positions should be worked simultaneously? 

Cause i was thinking of mastering back lever and l-sit, and only after start working front lever and planche.. Wouldn't mastering these 2 mouvements before make planche and front lever easier?

 

Btw, my elbow and all are pretty solid I don'T feel any sort of pain when doing back lever, this might be due to the fact that I spent a year doing tons of pull ups. dips and pushups (my records are 25, 40, 60 respectively)

whoa, bro, have you tested those recently? cause if you can do 40 full ROM Dips, you should be able to do more than 60 Pushups

[hype]

  On 7/27/2014 at 9:47 PM, tennissports said:

whoa, bro, have you tested those recently? cause if you can do 40 full ROM Dips, you should be able to do more than 60 Pushups

yes i can do 40 bro i've been doing SW for a year and here it's all about reps and sets. for the pushups last time i tested my max was 78 but the last ones were not perfect form that's why i rounded at 60.. but let's say its more like 70, I never count the none perfect form reps.

And actually mastering those basics gave me very good bent arm strength. First time I tried I got like 4 straddle planche push ups without prior training with those!  However I have no straight arm strength, and I discovered this by navigating on this forum ahah. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by hype

[Brian Li]

  On 7/27/2014 at 7:59 PM, Freshpro said:

I will refrain to comment on the backlever part since it is already clear why it should NOT be trained until mastery of the entire F series.

 

Mastery of entire F series for BL training is not necessary. Mastering rope climbs and German hangs will make sure you have adequate mobility and connective tissue strength for BL work.

 

 

  On 7/27/2014 at 10:17 PM, hype said:

yes i can do 40 bro i've been doing SW for a year and here it's all about reps and sets. for the pushups last time i tested my max was 78 but the last ones were not perfect form that's why i rounded at 60.. but let's say its more like 70, I never count the none perfect form reps.

And actually mastering those basics gave me very good bent arm strength. First time I tried I got like 4 straddle planche push ups without prior training with those!  However I have no straight arm strength, and I discovered this by navigating on this forum ahah. 

No disrespect intended, but I don't think just mastering standard dips and push-ups will give you enough strength to do even 1 straddle planche push-up unless you did some more max strength training with weighted push-ups, PPPs, planche push-up progressions, etc. Doing high reps build endurance instead of strength.

[Alexander Egebak]

  On 7/28/2014 at 3:53 AM, B1214N said:

Mastery of entire F series for BL training is not necessary. Mastering rope climbs and German hangs will make sure you have adequate mobility and connective tissue strength for BL work.

 

This is what I meant. Mastering F elements which prehabs and strengthens elbow tissue is required.

[Hannibal Ahmed]

another quick little question, so obviously, I wanna master straight-arm strength of course, I know that it's got some serious all around strength benefits with some emphasis on shoulder/connective tissue strength, but I don't wanna miss out on the benefits of bent-arm strength and doing actual repetitions so would training them both in unison inhibit the development of one or the other?

[Alexander Egebak]

  On 7/28/2014 at 11:57 AM, tennissports said:

another quick little question, so obviously, I wanna master straight-arm strength of course, I know that it's got some serious all around strength benefits with some emphasis on shoulder/connective tissue strength, but I don't wanna miss out on the benefits of bent-arm strength and doing actual repetitions so would training them both in unison inhibit the development of one or the other?

Best overall strength is best developed through training both, although straight arm strength alone yeilds better carryover results than bent arm strength alone.

[Hannibal Ahmed]

thanks, but to be even more specific, what if I were to train both on the same day? for example, if I were to train foot elevated pike pushups and dips in the morning, then planche leans or pseudo planches (if there's a difference) later in the day, would something along those lines throw off proper recovery?

[Daniel Burnham]

Nope. At that low of a level they can and should be trained in unison. You can do them in the same session if you want.

[hype]

  On 7/28/2014 at 3:53 AM, B1214N said:

Mastery of entire F series for BL training is not necessary. Mastering rope climbs and German hangs will make sure you have adequate mobility and connective tissue strength for BL work.

No disrespect intended, but I don't think just mastering standard dips and push-ups will give you enough strength to do even 1 straddle planche push-up unless you did some more max strength training with weighted push-ups, PPPs, planche push-up progressions, etc. Doing high reps build endurance instead of strength.

Yes but I wasn't working on just regular dips and pushsup, I had weighted days where I did reps with a weight vest (i can dip about 1 time my bodyweight) and I added variations to my push ups dips and pull ups, like pppu, wide, diamond, decline, decline pppu, etc. Also I did very explosives reps such as 360 dips, back clap pushups and dips, etc. Believe it or not, this builds lots of bent arm strength, and it's only the basics

I am VERY light tho, so I learn BW stuff very easily (I'm only 110 lbs)

Edited July 28, 2014 by hype