ELBOWS IN HANSTAND

[MATEJ CIZMARIK]

Hi guys,

I need help with analysis of my girlfriends alignment, position of elbows/arms in HS against wall.

Does this look like a hypermobility?

 

Thanks for help

[GoldenEagle]

It looks like your girlfriend's elbows hyperextend naturally.

 

Here is Chen Yibing doing a, timed, wall supported handstand. His elbows also naturally hyperextend.

[Daniel Burnham]

Would be easier to tell from the front angle where we can see exactly how they are bent.

[MATEJ CIZMARIK]

Will take more detailed photos from different angles.

[Biren Patel]

Will take more detailed photos from different angles.

did you take those photos yet?

[MATEJ CIZMARIK]

This is what i could take at best, there is no hyper mobility in elbows, as you can see...

What we have found is that she shifts the weigh on inner side of the palms, and has troubles not to do so.

 

[George Launchbury]

Looking at the position of the elbow, it looks like more of an exagerrated 'carrying angle' rather than hyperextension. Similar to knock-knees, but in the elbow joint. What the ramifications of this are I couldn't say. I think a lot of people have this to some degree, and may not even be noticeable.

 

A quick Google suggests that this is more common in women than men - I wonder if this is to do with clearing the proportionally wider pelvis, and possibly any correlation between carrying angle and hip width?

 

I have no experience with this per se, but should imagine that the elbow will be slightly less structurally sound, and so pay attention to ramping up volume too quickly, and heed any niggles/soreness?

 

-= G =-

[Biren Patel]

Looking at the position of the elbow, it looks like more of an exagerrated 'carrying angle' rather than hyperextension. Similar to knock-knees, but in the elbow joint. What the ramifications of this are I couldn't say. I think a lot of people have this to some degree, and may not even be noticeable.

 

A quick Google suggests that this is more common in women than men - I wonder if this is to do with clearing the proportionally wider pelvis, and possibly any correlation between carrying angle and hip width?

 

I have no experience with this per se, but should imagine that the elbow will be slightly less structurally sound, and so pay attention to ramping up volume too quickly, and heed any niggles/soreness?

 

-= G =-

Seems like a lot of guys on this forum have this large carrying angle. Makes it very difficult to tell if their shoulders are open, because it looks like their elbow will never stack directly above the wrist and directly below the shoulder. My question is, how do you tell if the shoulders are open in these people? The whole arm is in a different shape from the normal, and the angle of the upper arm to the chest gives the impression of a quite closed shoulder.

And if I am not mistaken, looks like Coach Sommer's former student, Allan Bower, has a carrying angle too.

[GoldenEagle]

Seems like a lot of guys on this forum have this large carrying angle. Makes it very difficult to tell if their shoulders are open, because it looks like their elbow will never stack directly above the wrist and directly below the shoulder. My question is, how do you tell if the shoulders are open in these people? The whole arm is in a different shape from the normal, and the angle of the upper arm to the chest gives the impression of a quite closed shoulder.

And if I am not mistaken, looks like Coach Sommer's former student, Allan Bower, has a carrying angle too.

If you elevate and retract your scapula as much as possible you will have a fully opened shoulders.

 

Also, while doing chest to wall supported handstand, the closer your wrists get to the wall the more your shoulders open.

[Biren Patel]

If you elevate and retract your scapula as much as possible you will have a fully opened shoulders.

 

Also, while doing chest to wall supported handstand, the closer your wrists get to the wall the more your shoulders open.

I have to respectfully disagree with this, on multiple reasons.

First, that we elevate and PROTRACT our scapula during the handstand. I have indeed heard that in some circus circles some people retract (I've heard of it happening, but never seen it), but not in the GB world.

Second, no matter how much you elevate and retract/protract, if you lack the mobility you will not get anywhere. I.e., to do an iron cross, you must internally rotate the shoulder, but simply internally rotating the shoulder is not a sufficient condition for doing an iron cross.

Last, getting the wrists closer to the wall is a good indicator of ability to open the shoulders. But, it is entirely and easily possible to get the wrists 1-3 inches from the wall and still maintain closed shoulders.

For these reasons, It doesn't indicates open shoulders in persons with large carrying angles. Do you agree?

[GoldenEagle]

I have to respectfully disagree with this, on multiple reasons.

First, that we elevate and PROTRACT our scapula during the handstand. I have indeed heard that in some circus circles some people retract (I've heard of it happening, but never seen it), but not in the GB world.

Second, no matter how much you elevate and retract/protract, if you lack the mobility you will not get anywhere. I.e., to do an iron cross, you must internally rotate the shoulder, but simply internally rotating the shoulder is not a sufficient condition for doing an iron cross.

Last, getting the wrists closer to the wall is a good indicator of ability to open the shoulders. But, it is entirely and easily possible to get the wrists 1-3 inches from the wall and still maintain closed shoulders.

For these reasons, It doesn't indicates open shoulders in persons with large carrying angles. Do you agree?

I agree with you on your second and last point, mobility will always prevent the movement of a particular joint, two knee surgeries taught me that fact. If mobility where an issue and bad form where taken into account it is entirely possible to maintain closed shoulders while one's wrist are 1-3 inches away from the wall.

In regards to your first point, after several years of completing yoga inversion I have learned to retract and elevate my scapula for greater control over my balance. Granted I have trained inversions on carpet.

[Mikael Kristiansen]

Some degree of hyperextension is beneficial for handbalancing. Not only does it help to lock the joint well, but because of the rotation of the humerus it does(at least for me and for several other balancers i know) help the angle of the shoulder. What you observed.Micawberian, is that these people will not need to flex their shoulders as far, hence making it easier to protract and stay perfectly stacked on top of the palm. You can and should still stay open in the shoulders, but this is definitely a plus for balancing.

 

No circus balancers with any sense to their practice would retract the scapula in handstand. You can do so on 2 arms, though it is ineffiient and shoots out the chest, but on 1 arm its effectively balance euthanasia. Protraction/elevation is the only scapula position that allow you to place the weight closer to the heel of your palm without having to compensate elsewhere and allow straightness enough for very precise balancing.

 

Here is a clip showing quite decent placement. I have slight hyperextension so notice the shallow angle of the humerus as i balance on the left arm. If you see before I go to 1 arm, there is not a straight line from upper back to palm. I do have very open shoulders, but here I can stay in a very comfortable and straight position without having any part of my body go out from the line to compensate for the shoulder and I have my weight drop straight into the heel of my palm even on 1 arm. I of course use the fingers, but they are used more to correct bigger mistakes and I thus save energy

[Biren Patel]

Some degree of hyperextension is beneficial for handbalancing. Not only does it help to lock the joint well, but because of the rotation of the humerus it does(at least for me and for several other balancers i know) help the angle of the shoulder. What you observed.Micawberian, is that these people will not need to flex their shoulders as far, hence making it easier to protract and stay perfectly stacked on top of the palm. You can and should still stay open in the shoulders, but this is definitely a plus for balancing.

Thanks to you for clearing up this confusion.

So, for people with hyperextension, you say that they do not need to flex their shoulders as far to remain perfectly stacked. If they were to flex completely (while still protracting), then I can see that their elbows would come into line with the body, but that the entire forearm would angle out and the palm would end up behind the body (so the arm would look as if in a mexican handstand) and they would have to compensate by opening the hips up even more. So it is the case that they must keep this slight closed shoulder, in order to stay perfectly stacked?

Interesting nonetheless to know that hyperextension helps the handstand. But unfortunately, it makes the aesthetics of the line look slightly worse, in my opinion. only slightly

[Mikael Kristiansen]

Yes, that is exactly what i mean. The main issue of a straight handstand is having an unbroken line from palm to feet. What you are seeing in my handstand there that the arm is not in line with the back is actually the protraction of my scapula. I have very good shoulder flexion so that if i just flex as far as I can,and elevate, my palm goes far beyond 180 degrees. From there i protract, which essentially rounds the back and brings the humerus into the angle that you see in the clip. You can see this in most balancers to some degree. 

If you think about it, having arms in line with the back will in most cases shoot the chest out.

 

On 1 arm the extension of the elbow makes even more of a difference. Some degree of hyper extension will make it easier to lock out and to center above the palm sideways without having to lean as far.

[Biren Patel]

Thank you for clearing everything up. Much easier to understand handstand now, and always great to learn something new!