Iron Cross Development Without Rings?

[Matthew Jefferys]

A fairly self-explanatory title. I'm not yet ready for iron cross training, but it's nice to know lots of information before progressing to set level  Is there a way to develop iron cross training without rings, and if so, is it safe/dangerous to do so? I've seen some use paralletes that slide along the ground to develop a wide handstand/inverted cross on bars (floor?) before transferring that to rings.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. My greatest feats so far are tuck planches and tucked Victorian on elbows (parallel bars), so any super-specific information might be forgotten by my chaotic brain long before I get a chance to apply it 

 

Thanks in advance,

Merc

 

 

(Much like Yuri in the attached image)

[Romulo Malta]

Being a beginner, you are not going to get any other advice here than doing Foundation first to get ready for rings. And yes, it is dangerous and not safe to try to mimic the iron cross position without specific preparation. The elements at foundation, especially at the Rope Climbing series are perfect to prepare you for that. Don´t mess around with meaningless workouts that may injure you for a long time, if not definitively.

[Matthew Jefferys]

Please reread my original post carefully, Romulo.

[Jon Douglas]

Van Gelder can sleep in a cross on rings. I doubt he felt anything on a stable surface. This is 100% not how he trained for it, this is a publicity shot.

It is not possible to condition properly for an unstable support like this on stable paralettes or floor. You can get a certain distance and start to lower the chance of injury, but not to the point of safety. The best you can hope for is getting away with it a couple more times.

The forces in cross are quite extreme. As Romulo says, progressive conditioning and a whole lot of rope climbs are necessary for it to be trained in anything more than a party trick level.

Trying it otherwise is a recipe for disaster; by which I mean an injury that will severely hamper or end your training life. We've seen it.

[Alexander Egebak]

Other than specific requirements to other rings prerequisites the iron cross is often performed with leverage-assist through bands, straps and you name it to learn the position.

 

First, you need a lot of "basic" skills mastered like rope climbs and straddle planche among some. Then, and perhaps meanwhile, you need rings, and on them you need good rings support, muscle ups, L-sit, handstand, solid false grip etc.

 

Then you can move on to specific iron cross conditioning.

[Biren Patel]

Trying it otherwise is a recipe for disaster; by which I mean an injury that will severely hamper or end your training life. We've seen it.

I keep seeing variations of this statement here, but always skimpy on the details. Can you give the concrete examples where someone's training life was ended by iron cross training? I'm not saying it doesn't exist/trying to start some argue, I am just genuinely curious how and what happened to the person/persons and extent of damage.

 

Last I remember someone on this forum a few years ago (I think) said some guy tried to supinate his elbows and elevated his shoulders in the cross and split his sternum or something absolutely nuts like that.

[GoldenEagle]

Working your way through the foundation course will give you plenty of muscular and connective tissue development prior to starting dedicated iron cross training without rings.

[Jon Douglas]

I keep seeing variations of this statement here, but always skimpy on the details. Can you give the concrete examples where someone's training life was ended by iron cross training? I'm not saying it doesn't exist/trying to start some argue, I am just genuinely curious how and what happened to the person/persons and extent of damage.

Last I remember someone on this forum a few years ago (I think) said some guy tried to supinate his elbows and elevated his shoulders in the cross and split his sternum or something absolutely nuts like that.

Here's that one;

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/9470-sternal-fracture-during-iron-cross/

Marko Petrunic, on 16 Dec 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

OK guys, I got the feedback from my friend. Unfortunately, the sternum bone is completely broken (horizontally, on its middle section). I really didn't believe that was possible from assisted IC.

That's particularly bad. More common is taking biceps tendon off the bone. We don't say treat this stuff with caution to kill peoples fun.

Some one like Mark or Ale might be able to give you a worst-case scenario from an anatomy background, if they are so inclined.

[Mikkel Ravn]

Here's that one;

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/9470-sternal-fracture-during-iron-cross/

Marko Petrunic, on 16 Dec 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

OK guys, I got the feedback from my friend. Unfortunately, the sternum bone is completely broken (horizontally, on its middle section). I really didn't believe that was possible from assisted IC.

That's particularly bad. More common is taking biceps tendon off the bone. We don't say treat this stuff with caution to kill peoples fun.

Some one like Mark or Ale might be able to give you a worst-case scenario from an anatomy background, if they are so inclined.

Yikes, hadn't heard that one before. There was also a story about John Sapinoso's elbow blowing up somewhere.

[Matthew Jefferys]

Yikes, hadn't heard that one before. There was also a story about John Sapinoso's elbow blowing up somewhere.

Coach Sommer mentioned that when referring to Ido's bent arm iron cross.

[Matthew Jefferys]

I'd just like to reiterate; I'm not actually going to attempt any of this until I'm more than ready.

 

Furthermore, while I started Foundation very recently, I've been training for years; I can do partial one arm chin-ups, and rope climbs are incredibly easy for me (always have been; don't know why). Planche training for me is slow, because I only actually train for it every few weeks. My elbows can easily handle the load (planche lean with my 60kg girlfriend on my back didn't cause any more than mild discomfort in the elbow joint). The only thing elbow-wise that I have trouble with is the supinated back lever (discomfort, but no pain).

 

I'm not looking to develop an iron cross on rings; I'm looking to develop one on a stable platform (like Yuri in the attached image). I know Yuri is a high-level athlete and can do almost anything. My interest is bar/platform training; not rings. If no one knows of a way, or that way is too dangerous, I'll give the rings a go, but I'd rather not (because I don't readily have access to rings, so training periods will be extremely sparse if I'm limited to only training on the rings)

 

EDIT: Planche lean with my girlfriend on my back was only held for a few seconds! The load was far too much for my muscles to handle, but my elbows were unaffected. (Just so no one thinks I'm claiming to be a planche beast, because I'm actually not very strong )

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mercurial Flow

[Alexander Egebak]

First, you cannot really train IC without rings like previously stated.

 

Second, if you want to convince us about your current level of strength you better post videos for form check!

 

Quite a few people have claimed perfect form on advanced exercises on this forum; either their form is bad or they do not post videos at all. Actually, only very few people have lived up to the demands.

[Biren Patel]

Yikes, hadn't heard that one before. There was also a story about John Sapinoso's elbow blowing up somewhere.

Does this man just train badly or something...not a few months ago I watched a video where he ripped his pectoral tendon completely off the bone.

[Julian Aldag]

Pushing too hard too soon with not the body to handle it.  John killed his Pec while choosing to muscle through a technical element borrowed from Circus 'Straps'.  If he had been taught the correct movement pattern, and had adequate shoulder mobility and strength, this most likely would not have happened.

[Mikkel Ravn]

...and then they proceeded to make an 'epic' video of him recovering from the pec tear without optiing to have it surgically reconstructed. That was borderline, subliminal quackery. I have been uneasy about the Ido cult ever since watching that.   

[Jan Reipert]

...and then they proceeded to make an 'epic' video of him recovering from the pec tear without optiing to have it surgically reconstructed. That was borderline, subliminal quackery. I have been uneasy about the Ido cult ever since watching that.   

yep. you dont need rest, everything you need is "movement" to heal blah blah blah

[Matthew Jefferys]

First, you cannot really train IC without rings like previously stated.

 

Second, if you want to convince us about your current level of strength you better post videos for form check!

 

Quite a few people have claimed perfect form on advanced exercises on this forum; either their form is bad or they do not post videos at all. Actually, only very few people have lived up to the demands.

I'm not claiming that my form is perfect, nor am I anywhere near anything 'advanced', I'm just asking if it's possible to train Iron Cross without rings. My ability is irrelevant (I'm not going to train for the IC for a long while. Certainly not in the next year, in any case).

[Matthew Jefferys]

This is very quickly turning into a conversation which doesn't involve me or my question, so...   I shall go look for information elsewhere.  Thanks anyway.

[Alexander Egebak]

This is very quickly turning into a conversation which doesn't involve me or my question, so...   I shall go look for information elsewhere.  Thanks anyway.

We said several times that IC cannot properly be developed without rings.

[Matthew Jefferys]

I'm not asking about developing iron cross without rings, for iron cross on rings. I'm asking about developing iron cross without rings, for iron cross without rings.

[Cole Dano]

Of course it's possible to train IC across solid surfaces. It doesn't mitigate the inherent dangers in training IC with out proper preparation of your biceps tendon; which is explains the reticence in giving any further detail.

[Coach Sommer]

Beginners can not safely train the iron cross; with or without rings.

 

Your not liking that answer does not change its validity.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Rajesh Bhat]

Foundation please! 

 

Next!

[Matthew Jefferys]

Beginners can not safely train the iron cross; with or without rings.

 

Your not liking that answer does not change its validity.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

Which is why I stated that I won't be attempting any real iron cross training at all in the near future.

[Matthew Jefferys]

Of course it's possible to train IC across solid surfaces. It doesn't mitigate the inherent dangers in training IC with out proper preparation of your biceps tendon; which is explains the reticence in giving any further detail.

Thank you for the straight answer. I don't know how many times I have to say that this post was simply for information gathering, and that I won't put it into practice for a long time to come 

 

I've heard that the tendon in question is the brachialis tendon. Is it both the biceps brachii and brachialis that have to be strengthened or just the one? Also, what qualifies as 'ready' for iron cross training? I can hold a back lever with palms facing away. I've heard some say that this is heavy on the elbows, but I didn't have issue with it.