Further discussion on issues with veganism

[Matthew Jefferys]

It is said that Kitchari i.e. Mung Beans + Rice is the most "easy to absorb" food/ protein on the planet. 

Can't tell if joking or serious...

[Tom Bol]

Can't tell if joking or serious...

 

Well hopefully we can leave snide humour out of this, stick to a factual discussion and presume crashnburn was absolutely serious.

 

crashnburn do you happen to have a source or study for Kitchari being easy to absorb or is it just hearsay? (still potentially a valid observation in the latter case anyhow)

Edited December 28, 2015 by Aspirant

[Guillaume Schollier]

 

crashnburn do you happen to have a source or study for Kitchari being easy to absorb or is it just hearsay? (still potentially a valid observation in the latter case anyhow)

 

Kitcheri has been found a very balancing food for any type of body constitution (when prepared with the right mixture of condiments for one's constitution). It's often given to young children also as a strenghtening food when their health has been impaired as it has been observed to be easily digestible and providing all nutrients when prepared with vegetable.

 

Documentation to be found in Ayurvedic sources and experience of dozens upon dozens of generations. Coming from an academic background and having seen the peer review journal system approach first hand with professors publishing in the top journals in their field, I have come to appreciate more experienced based approaches. The Ayurvedic sources, experience of generations upon generations, along with one's own personal experience, feel much stronger here than most of the limited scoped studies that often lack understanding of the deeper life fundamentals. They also offer excellent contributions of course.  

[Guillaume Schollier]

Did I forget to mention I'd be taking sublingual B12 even if I eat meat? Btw eating meat does not guarantee you will absorb B12 well, my friend plus all his siblings have to have B12 injections and they eat a fair amount of meat.

 

Indeed B12 deficiencies are found both in meat eaters and vegans/vegetarians and are mostly an absorption issue.

Remarkably, some natural therapists have found that people with B12 deficiencies could have normal B12 ranges after undertaking extended fasts, showing the body's capacity to regulate itself when given the appropriate rest for overall health maintenance and repair.

 

That said, I believe it's wise to check on B12 levels and supplement on a vegan diet, if the food is bought in supermarkets. If one has access to fresh organic resources grown in a non-depleted soil and the produce is not too thoroughly cleaned, B12 levels should be fine.  

[Guillaume Schollier]

An example of a "thriving" group in a third world area would be the masai tribe i guess. average male height is probably about 6 feet tall, they're consuming vast quantities of milk. the dutch also used to be some of the shortest europeans. now their diet is large quantities of dairy and the average male height is also something like 6 feet tall now

 

Why assume height is a health indicator?

Lack of nutrition surely doesn't foster growth, but once this is taken into account, I wouldn't correlate height and health positively necessarily.

 

Plenty of growth hormones in the meat and dairy industry are also contributing to the overall height increase in the Western world and many bone diseases along with it.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Why assume height is a health indicator?

Lack of nutrition surely doesn't foster growth, but once this is taken into account, I wouldn't correlate height and health positively necessarily.

 

Plenty of growth hormones in the meat and dairy industry are also contributing to the overall height increase in the Western world and many bone diseases along with it.

Because nutrition and height are correlated. If a child is malnourished during their growth their overall height and size will be hindered. You need the building blocks in order to grow. Growth hormone does the work, but nutrition is the fuel

[Guillaume Schollier]

Because nutrition and height are correlated. If a child is malnourished during their growth their overall height and size will be hindered. You need the building blocks in order to grow. Growth hormone does the work, but nutrition is the fuel

Hi Nick,

 

This is what I mentioned in the second sentence. I expect that once this factor is being controlled for, the correlation will fade away.

In other words: If considering a population of well nourished people only, the positive correlation between health and height may probably not be significantly found anymore.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Hi Nick,

 

This is what I mentioned in the second sentence. I expect that once this factor is being controlled for, the correlation will fade away.

In other words: If considering a population of well nourished people only, the positive correlation between health and height may probably not be significantly found anymore.

Gotcha gotcha. You're saying it reaches a point of diminishing returns once everyone is nourished "enough" to facilitate growth and then genetics is really the determining factor. If I read that correctly

[Guillaume Schollier]

Gotcha gotcha. You're saying it reaches a point of diminishing returns once everyone is nourished "enough" to facilitate growth and then genetics is really the determining factor. If I read that correctly

Also

 

Height indeed becomes less of a success factor for survival or higher levels of evolution beyond physical survival.

It takes lots of energy to build and sustain a larger body; energy that could be used for spiritual growth or other aspects of life once the stage of survival is a small factor in one's existence. Then overalll health (mental, emotional, spiritual and physical) may well be fostered more by a smaller sized body. If you observe saintly beings, their height is often less than average, but their heart and power of influence can be felt as enormous.

 

Humans have more than the food sheath, the physical body. They also have a body of prana (chi), an astral body and a bliss body. At higher levels of evolution these bodies are invested in more and the physical sheath is given less importance proportionally. The prana body is most relevant for experiencing a disease free body. Strengthening this body also makes for healing possibilities beyond the current reaches of alopathic medicine.

[Tom Bol]

Giyom most interesting, when I get a moment and if you don't mind I should like to contact you.

 

There is a funny relationship between yogis and gymnasts, perhaps former hatha practitioners in a previous life are in this life attracted to Gymnastics!

Edited December 28, 2015 by Aspirant

[Matthew Jefferys]

Well hopefully we can leave snide humour out of this, stick to a factual discussion and presume crashnburn was absolutely serious.

 

crashnburn do you happen to have a source or study for Kitchari being easy to absorb or is it just hearsay? (still potentially a valid observation in the latter case anyhow)

As I'm very sure I explained before, certain foods don't have extra special absorption properties. "Kitchari" is not somehow absorbed differently to other foods. You can't think of foods as special entities in themselves; they're just nutrient packets, and each nutrient from each class of compounds is absorbed in very much the same way.

[Matthew Jefferys]

Why assume height is a health indicator?

Lack of nutrition surely doesn't foster growth, but once this is taken into account, I wouldn't correlate height and health positively necessarily.

 

Plenty of growth hormones in the meat and dairy industry are also contributing to the overall height increase in the Western world and many bone diseases along with it.

You'll have to cite that last bit. Last time I checked, osteoporosis rates are consistent with sedentary behaviour, not diet. Furthermore, average height in the Western world has been increasing for the past few centuries. Long before synthetic hormones existed.

[Matthew Jefferys]

Also

 

Height indeed becomes less of a success factor for survival or higher levels of evolution beyond physical survival.

It takes lots of energy to build and sustain a larger body; energy that could be used for spiritual growth or other aspects of life once the stage of survival is a small factor in one's existence. Then overalll health (mental, emotional, spiritual and physical) may well be fostered more by a smaller sized body. If you observe saintly beings, their height is often less than average, but their heart and power of influence can be felt as enormous.

 

Humans have more than the food sheath, the physical body. They also have a body of prana (chi), an astral body and a bliss body. At higher levels of evolution these bodies are invested in more and the physical sheath is given less importance proportionally. The prana body is most relevant for experiencing a disease free body. Strengthening this body also makes for healing possibilities beyond the current reaches of alopathic medicine.

I'll have to ask you politely that we stick to diet topics here, and not religion. Unless we want this thread cut short by the moderators...

[Guillaume Schollier]

Giyom most interesting, when I get a moment and if you don't mind I should like to contact you.

 

There is a funny relationship between yogis and gymnasts, perhaps former hatha practitioners in a previous life are in this life attracted to Gymnastics!

 

Will be happy to, Aspirant

[Guillaume Schollier]

As I'm very sure I explained before, certain foods don't have extra special absorption properties. "Kitchari" is not somehow absorbed differently to other foods. You can't think of foods as special entities in themselves; they're just nutrient packets, and each nutrient from each class of compounds is absorbed in very much the same way.

 

The length of time it takes for the body to pass different kinds of foods varies quite a bit.

It doesn't take rocket science to find this out for yourself, a little sensitivity as to the life processes within will be needed though.

 

Bring water into a pipe, it'll easily flow if the pipe has a declination. Bring mud in it, it may stay stuck if it passes at all.

 

 

 

As for your post on religion, these days the religion is called modern science and the favour of authority is given there. Science as it it practiced nowadays has its own limitations. You hear this from someone who was passionately part of the academic world once upon a time.

[Tom Bol]

As I'm very sure I explained before, certain foods don't have extra special absorption properties. "Kitchari" is not somehow absorbed differently to other foods. You can't think of foods as special entities in themselves; they're just nutrient packets, and each nutrient from each class of compounds is absorbed in very much the same way.

 

In which case a diet based on beans and rice should be more than enough protein to thrive on.

 

The length of time it takes for the body to pass different kinds of foods varies quite a bit.

 

 

I happen to agree with Giyom about this simply from experience and that also yes different foods are absorbed at different rates, try a protein bar vs a steak or some sausage, for me the latter takes much longer to digest and so I presume to be absorbed, it all just takes longer.

 

Mercurium also amusing that you are trying to point the religion finger at Ayurveda! Although I agree slightly off topic although not entirely.

 

You'll have to cite that last bit. Last time I checked, osteoporosis rates are consistent with sedentary behaviour, not diet.

 

Yes and no, did you mean to write osteoarthritis? I happen to know a little about both of these but it's too long to go into it here.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Aspirant

[ASForum]

Fact. The issue here will primarily be of trust in a certain system, framework & source. There is quite a bit of research into ayurvedic stuff, that I've read, but I've gone past that. 

 

The kind of healing and diagnosis I have experienced & seen with Ayurveda & some Ayurvedic Vaidyas/ Doctors has been so far beyond any western medical science I've seen that they have my full trust. I've seen brain tumors & optic nerves & auto immune disorders heal for people where Johns Hopkins docs could not do anything. 

Hence, I have been allopathy free for 5-7 years now. 

 

You can google for articles on mung beans/ kitchari. And if you wish to go to best sources: 
- Charaka Samhita | Ashtanga Sangraha | Ashtanga Hridaya 
- Try to find some good docs/ nutritionists who focus / have studied the above well. 

 

Whats funny is my cousin bought a copy of AH volumes and wow.. it has double digit pages on all kinds of meat from deer to what not and talks about specifics of each impacts the body and how it should/ should not be cooked.

 

The reason that most Vaidyas do not recommended non-veg are certain 'contra-indications' that they cause and veg 'sattvic' options like 'Ghee' are available. 

 

If you want an easy to look up source google up Ayurveda Encyclopedia. The more I read/ learn about it, the more I realize pretty much ALL DIETS & NUTRITIONAL paradigms can FIT INTO its framework, because it is so Fundamental. 

 

But your best proof will be experiential with right guidance. 

Can't tell if joking or serious...

Well hopefully we can leave snide humour out of this, stick to a factual discussion and presume crashnburn was absolutely serious.

 

crashnburn do you happen to have a source or study for Kitchari being easy to absorb or is it just hearsay? (still potentially a valid observation in the latter case anyhow)

Specific to Kitchari/ Khichdi - A billion people who no matter how sick, whether having fever or stomach problems are given Khichdi when sick. All "western doctors" also recommended it - as it is most light, digestible, nutritious & balancing on the system. 

 

Kitcheri has been found a very balancing food for any type of body constitution (when prepared with the right mixture of condiments for one's constitution). It's often given to young children also as a strenghtening food when their health has been impaired as it has been observed to be easily digestible and providing all nutrients when prepared with vegetable.

 

Documentation to be found in Ayurvedic sources and experience of dozens upon dozens of generations. Coming from an academic background and having seen the peer review journal system approach first hand with professors publishing in the top journals in their field, I have come to appreciate more experienced based approaches. The Ayurvedic sources, experience of generations upon generations, along with one's own personal experience, feel much stronger here than most of the limited scoped studies that often lack understanding of the deeper life fundamentals. They also offer excellent contributions of course.  

All of the above After all it took a few decades for the west to accept the benefits of Yoga & Meditation, why not give its Sister science Ayurveda a chance  

[Guillaume Schollier]

Last time I checked, osteoporosis rates are consistent with sedentary behaviour, not diet.

 

 

 

Furthermore, average height in the Western world has been increasing for the past few centuries. Long before synthetic hormones existed.

Hi Mercurium,

 

Surely, sedentary behaviour is often a major cause for osteoporosis and other bone diseases; sure it's not the only cause also. Look around you, there's quite some active people of different ages suffering from bone issues these days. 

 

As for the height increase, same here. Growth hormones are indeed not the only factor, part of it.

 

As you like references, I'd be interested in your data on height of the past few centuries before the dawning of synthetic growth hormones.

[Tom Bol]

Hi Mercurium,

 

Surely, sedentary behaviour is often a major cause for osteoporosis and other bone diseases; sure it's not the only cause also. Look around you, there's quite some active people of different ages suffering from bone issues these days.

 

I didn't want to go into it because it is of topic but you are right there are many other factors than a sedentary lifestyle (didn't even know that was one of the factors tbh). For example for women menopause, also your Vitamin D intake (which is tied into climate) so for example africans receive something around 1/3 of the calcium we do in our Western diet but due to their daily skin exposure to strong sunlight and thus Vitamin D they have low osteoporosis rates, (Vitamin D enabling calcium absorption).

 

For example here in the UK, the NHS actually planned to send osteoporosis sufferers to Morroco for a few months of the year but the plan was scrapped because it was too expensive and impractical, that was some decades ago.

 

It is a huge topic for another thread.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Aspirant

[GoldenEagle]

Two questions: Isn't that a lot of processed or packaged food, to which I question the health and nutritional benefit? Also, does such a diet keep you full?

 

1. Generally speaking, the vegan eating lifestyle can be just as unhealthy as the standard "American" diet.

 

The eating lifestyle becomes healthier when one completes the transition from eating primarily the meat alternatives and the faux "cheeses" to relying primarily on fruits, nuts, and vegetables.

 

2. Considering the meals I tend to eat, I am adequately full.

Speaking honestly, I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. The proof of what I say works, is the condition of my physical body.

 

[Daniel Taylor-Shaut]

But hadn't you said you eat some packaged vegan bars as well as powders? So, would they not count in the same category as faux cheeses or are they in a different category? Also, in order to be satiated do you find that the amount of food you have to consume is larger?

[Guillaume Schollier]

In order to be satiated do you find that the amount of food you have to consume is larger?

If we count calories, it would be less. If we count volume, it may be more.

Stomach adapts to taking in higher volume, just like muscles grow from training.

[GoldenEagle]

But hadn't you said you eat some packaged vegan bars as well as powders? So, would they not count in the same category as faux cheeses or are they in a different category? Also, in order to be satiated do you find that the amount of food you have to consume is larger?

1. Are trying to trap me with words? A loaf of bread is a processed food item. Baking, broiling, cutting, frying, grilling, mixing, pureeing, searing, steaming,  etc are part of processing "Food" ingredients into a "Meal." 

 

2. Feel free to eat what I eat everyday and find out how full you are. Please keep in mind I am about 5'6",  weigh around 138lb and I have a mesomorph body type. The total number of calories your body needs is different than mine. My breakfast by itself is about 890 calories. My pre and post workout meals combined is 480 calories. My lunch is 320 My typical dinner is 360 calories. Excluding the handfuls of raw nuts I consume and other fruits, my total caloric intake is about 2050 calories.

[Guillaume Schollier]

Hi Rayne,

 

No trapping going on, friend.. Most people are genuinely trying to  understand each other and sharing experiences.. Experiences vary for all kinds of reasons; getting to understand each other and learn from one another is one of the motivations we communicate here.

 I'm just wondering how people manage to stay full and lean on a vegan diet because it's beyond me of how to do that.
 

Much love

 

 

Daniel, it's really not that difficult in my experience. Actually I felt more like binging when I was still eating meat. Did you see my previous post in another thread with a video of vegan strongman Patrik Baboumian? His food requirements are immense and he's getting all he needs.

Take into account that transitioning to something new takes some adjustments and that's where most people give up on change.

Change in diet is quite an enterprise, involving body and mind. Too many doubts hinder the transition and adaptation. Matter responds to mind. Doubt in the mind makes bodily adaptation more challenging.

[Matthew Jefferys]

The length of time it takes for the body to pass different kinds of foods varies quite a bit.

It doesn't take rocket science to find this out for yourself, a little sensitivity as to the life processes within will be needed though.

 

Bring water into a pipe, it'll easily flow if the pipe has a declination. Bring mud in it, it may stay stuck if it passes at all.

 

 

 

As for your post on religion, these days the religion is called modern science and the favour of authority is given there. Science as it it practiced nowadays has its own limitations. You hear this from someone who was passionately part of the academic world once upon a time.

It doesn't vary as much as you think, and even so, that's irrelevant. The time a food takes to pass through the digestive system is related to the amount of fibre or roughage present.

 

Religion relies on dogma and belief without proof. Science relies on criticism, evidence and mathematics. Science is also skeptical of everything, even itself. They are polar opposites. In any case, that's a topic for a different forum altogether. Religion has yet to explain how the digestive system works, yet scientific enquiry has, so I think it's safe to rely on scientific discussions with respects to vegetarianism and diet, yes?