Tuck and Lever - 2 months and can't progress - help!

[mobiustrip]

I started the frog stand and tuck front lever at the beginning of February of this year, the frog was easy and I made quick work of it in two weeks.

2 months later and I'm STILL not able to do the TUCK PLANCHE for 60 seconds...the best I did was a week ago for 40 seconds and then 30 seconds. But mostly I am doing the hold for 30 seconds, 20 seconds then 15 seconds for a set. My form is still poor, my hips are below my shoulders and it's still hard to hold my knees to my chest.

My triceps are pathetic though...I can only do a narrow grop bench @160lbs...I weigh 170...is that why my triceps seem to fail first?

Any help? Does this progression truly take a long time to master before even going to the advanced tuck planche? Any other supplementary exercises to help? I usually do this 3x per week....5x per week burnt me out.

Similiar to the tuck planche, on the TUCK FRONT LEVER, I took a picture today and 2.5 months later I still have a terrible 45degree angle between my torso and horizontal...every set I try to lift my hips up till my shoulders are burning...but I was shocked on how little I progressed this past month. With a pitiful 45deg angle, I can only hold it for 30-40seconds max per rep.

I AM stronger, there is no doubt about that but these are very difficult. I have eliminated over half of the 'conventional' lifts out of my routine to favor these as I like the philosophy. I can climb childrens playground bars and pull myself up like I couldn't believe yesterday..no leg help...straight up. My kids couldn't believe that I could lift myself to where they thought they were safe.

What has your experience been with progressing through these? I need some help, 2 months and little progress is tough to swallow.

Many thanks to all replies. It will be appreciated.

[Ricky Dawson]

hello mobiustrip,

are you just working the static holds? Although i still cannot planche, and to some degree have put it on the back burner for now. I have decided to concentrate on the 'easier' moves.

The thing that really helped me with the front lever was coming away from just working the holds. Work on lowering from an Inverted hang (be it with one or both legs extended or tuck etc) but i also saw a big leap in improvement and enjoyment in my training when i added the front lever pulls and front lever pull ups. Since then i been able to hold the one leg extended lever for about 10 seconds, am now working towards the full front lever as my training environment doesn't allow for straddle training.

I would add that you should find two or so dynamic movements in the planche, this will help alot too. One i use is to go into a handstand with abs facing the fall then to walk down into a planche position (pressing the feet into the wall to keep you up really works the back) and then either holding or doing pressups in this position. Also there is Psuedo planche push ups.

To conclude i personally find it much more beneficial to combine static and dynamic training, even in the same workout at times... Variety seems to be the key.

hope this was of some help.

Ricky

[Paul]

Maybe experiment with shorter hold times. Long holds will build endurance but not appreciable strength. Maybe cycle between short hold days and long hold days. I prefer to work in the 5 - 10 second range for pure strength but don't push it beyond what you are capable of. The thing is not to gain strength at too fast a pace or your tendons etc wont keep up. Also it's not so much about your triceps. Planches rely a lot on bicep and shoulder strength along with chest etc. Keeping knees close to the chest is all about core strength so work on that too. Pressing to handstand and lowering slowly down again and hold various positions in the lowering phase to simulate the different planche positions helps. Do pseudo planche press ups too. Again, work in the low rep ranges for strength. This has all helped me and I've almost got my straddle planche no. Takes time though, don't rush it.

Paul.

[George Launchbury]

Hi mobiustrip,

Ha ha ...I was just writing pretty much the same as Ricky when I noticed his post, so "What he said".

As a word of caution (which may just be how it's worded), but it sounds like you're saying you are practicing your tuck planche with poor form!? Apologies if the following doesn't apply to you, but will carry on as might help others. If you're unable to hold a position with good form for 10 seconds minimum, you should really be training an easier variation. Good form being the key. Repeating poor form will not build strength or technique in the correct position.

I also notice you train in gradually shortening sets. It might be better to train in sets of 50% of your max hold, so if your max is 10 seconds, you would do 12x5sec for your 60 seconds total volume. If your max is 20 seconds, then 6x10sec, etc. Every few weeks, re-test your max, and adjust accordingly. Shorter more intense efforts build strength, longer efforts build endurance.

When starting a new progression you are working more on strength, then you build a little endurance into the movement to consolidate gains, allow your tendons etc. to catch up, and also give you a little slack when moving up to the next variation; only having to do 5 seconds at a time instead of 15-20.

To this end, some members have suggested that one could consider moving up with a max of around 30sec ...if 10sec rule is met (10 seconds in the next progression with good form). As I understand it, the reason for the 10 second cut-off is that training at around your 50% mark allows you to complete more sets at the same intensity, and training below 5sec per set won't reap many benefits.

I may be wrong (in which case I hope to be corrected) but I believe the difference between the tuck and adv.tuck plance to be mainly that the former allows a curved back, and the latter is with the back held flat, so try not to be too concerned with the knees held tight to the chest (though the higher they are the easier the position will be).

Regards,

George.

[George Launchbury]

Seems the english are bored at work this morning!?

[Paul]

Seems the english are bored at work this morning!?

I work from home and don't roll into my studio till around 10 or 11am. This is me www.paulcorfield.com

[George Launchbury]

Paul,

Ah, I remember the luxury! I'm a web developer/designer and used to work at home too...until the industry took a dip a few years ago, and the arrival of daugher #1 dictated I should get on a salary.

- - - - - - - - - -

mobiustrip,

While I remember - I was messing around on my rings with a mate a while ago, and although we couldn't manage to hold a hips-level tuck front-lever for more than a second or so, both my mate and I could hold a piked front-lever for 10ish seconds (and not a max effort, but close) and pull-out. Don't know if that adds another string to your bow in terms of an easier progression? I guess this works because straightening your legs from the tuck position puts your feet above your centre of gravity, possibly even adding a small amount of leverage the other way, making it easier?

Unless, of course, anyone can think of a reason why it's not a good idea! :shock:

Regards,

George.

[Ricky Dawson]

Seems the english are bored at work this morning!?

Yep, soooo quiet here.

Apologies for stealing your thunder beating you to the post, good to see i was along the right lines though

Ricky

[mobiustrip]

First, thanks for all the replies.

Ricky,

These are the only static movements I know of, I am using the program from http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/ where Coach S only has those two progressions...are there other good resources for the holds you mentioned?

Supposedly from the link I start with the Frog stand, then progress to the std tuck planche, then advanced tuck planche, then straddle planche, tuck planch pushups, then to straddle planche pushups...only progressing to the next after I achieve a 60 second 1-rep hold.

As far as dynmaic training, I still do some conventional lifts (flat bench and narrow grip) but have a good dose of pullups both prontated wide-grip and supinated and dips all once a week between the static holds.

Paul,

Shorter sets...so I don't want my goal to be 60 full seconds per hold? I do my sets and hold each rep as long as I can to accumulate 60 total seconds per the above article reference to Building an Olympic Body through Bodyweight Conditioning - Christopher Sommer

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/

George,

Yes, the form is definitely not optimal on the tuck planche (not tucked in enough, hips are below my shoulders ), I'm working on form every set but this is the first hold past the frogstand...is there an easier move to work up to this? I thought I was at the beginning as it was...

You mentioned shorter hold times too...I will experiment with it though...is my goal to eventually get to 60 full hold seconds per 1 rep?

And the piked front lever, will have to find that one...I don't see it in the link above I have been following.

The levered progressions it says to follow are the tuck fron lever (which I'm on but not parrallel back to horizontal), then the advanced tuck front lever, then the straddle tuck front lever, then on to the tuck front lever pullups and lastly the straddle front lever pullups.

Coach S says to 'be patient'...wondering how patient as it's been about 3 months total and I'm on the first 1 or 2 out of about 5 per progression series.

Mix it up more? Shorter reps and focus on better form as you all have mentioned? Any other good bodyweight exercises to change it up? (I don't have rings)...just a rack system and a pullup bar.

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm definitely going to keep with the program as I am very happy with the results so far...

[George Launchbury]

Hi mobiustrip,

I think that by shorter sets, Paul meant shorter efforts, leaving the volume the same. The terminology can be a bit confusing, but generally you should think of holds in terms of Sets as being either a chunk of time, or number of Reps. 5 sets of 0:15, or 5 sets of 5 reps, for example. The total hold time in this case would be Volume, and for weight training, the total number of reps would be Volume.

Have you tried the frog-stand with arms locked straight? That is harder than the frog-stand, but easier than the tuck-planche. Really watch those hips. It gets a lot easier when they are too high in the frog variations. I can't remember if a version with one leg in frog, and the other in tuck was deemed appropriate/useful/safe? Anyone?

Waiting for at least 30-40 seconds is probably fine, but the important part is that you must be able to hold the next position with good form, otherwise you are wasting your time and will progress very slowly. Have you taken any time off during the first few months? You may be getting stale /overtrained and need a break for a few sessions or so? Still keep your volume at 60 seconds for training, and only do a max hold every few weeks to see what the 50% you should be training at should be.

As for piked front-lever, I have not seen it written anywhere, was just something I experimented with. It's basically a tuck front-lever, and strighten your legs so feet are between/past/near the straps (no touching straps, though). Failing that, the advice to lower down from inverted sounds best. Try to pause at the hips level point for a couple of seconds on the way down, or just go through it as slow as possible. Maybe 5 sets of 3 reps, extending the pauses as you get stronger, and stopping when you still have some gas in the tank (i.e. not to failure). Up to 2 minutes rest between sets.

It's really important to have a few back-off sessions every 6-8 sessions, and even complete restfrom time to time. Like Coach has said in the past, Getting stronger is a non-linear progression. Your body just can't cope with constant gains indefinitely - which results in long plateaus if you're lucky, and injury if you're not.

Let me know if I've missed anything, or been unclear ...daughter #1 is after the laptop!

Regards,

George.

[David Picó García]

Coach S says to 'be patient'...wondering how patient as it's been about 3 months total and I'm on the first 1 or 2 out of about 5 per progression series.

More, more patient, coach said in the article at least 6 months, and i think this is very optimistic, i start almost a year ago and i'm still on tuck planche :oops: . I cant see the way to improve either. But front lever is much easier and i cant hold the one leg version for 15 seconds or more and 30 the advanced tuck. I also can do a negative from upside down very controlled.

I have to say that i wasn't constant, specially with planche because i have some pain issues in my forearms when i train the planche progression regularly.

[Blairbob]

Just because you're working on the isometric holds for 60 does not mean you cannot work on supplementary exercises afterwards. As in pullups, dips, leg lifts, pushups ( in handstand or 3/4 ) etc You might opt to do this on an off day like isometrics one day, isokinetics the next/other.

If you're getting stuck at tuck front lever, I reccomend working some body levers to make sure it's not core ( slap me for using that term ) that's limiting you.

It's important to keep your training rounded enough that there will not be any gaps.

While your BW is fairly light, are you tall or long limbed? Either will slow down progress in most BW movements.

[Paul]

What I was meaning by shorter reps was by working in the 5 to 10 second range you can significantly increase the tension in the muscle by working the hardest position possible (with perfect form). Also shorter high tension reps will have little effect on recovery where as long endurance reps will soon leave you burned out if you are holding them as long as you possibly can, I've been there on many an occasion. That's one reason why Coach probably says to only do holds that are 50% of your max and only re-test your max every couple of months or so. I stuck with tuck planches for a long time and was doing them for well over a minute, something like 80 seconds and couldn't progress to the advanced tuck. I think training at home you just don't do all the other exercises that a gymnast does that probably help to advance through the progressions. I'm almost getting my straddle planche now and the biggest advance came when I dropped down to short, really intense reps. Putting your feet up on a couple of chairs that are wide apart automatically gets your hips up high enough and then really lean into the planche for short holds. Something else I do is at the end of the hold I lower down slowly and press back up as in a pseudo planche press up, all the time leaning as far forward as I can and then hold the planche again and do that for about 3 reps. All at the highest tension I can possibly get while maintaining good form. Short holds and low reps allow you to recover much quicker and train on a more frequent basis if pure strength is your goal. Only pick a few exercises though that are your main goals and always, perfect form is of the greatest importance. No bent arms allowing you to cheat etc.

Paul.

[Mark Weaver]

Sorry this is off-topic.

Paul, your paintings are great!

[mobiustrip]

To all,

Thanks for the responses. From your suggestions on the tuck planche, I re-evaluated my form and am doing this with the proper form - even at significantly shorter hold times. Hopefully over time these will progress again. I probably shouldn't have tried to hold the 'poor' form at all as I was not developing the muscles needed for the proper form.

On the tuck lever, WOW...big gains in the last 2 sessions. I again focused on form as you mentioned and all of the sudden I was able to achieve a parrallel to the ground back. Picture perfect. I found that the key to this exercise is getting past that 45degree to horizontal back that I was struggling wtih...that is the toughest spot in the exercise where the lever puts you at the most mechanical disadvantage...I found that if you can push through the pain and pull up to <45degree back angle to horizontal, the exercise gets A LOT easier as the lever is now working to your advantage as now you are just holding yourself up with your arms and back to 'hang'. 55 second hold!

The one poster is probably right though...patience of > 6months. I am now realizing that the tuck planche may make a better year-end goal.

I do feel a lot stronger though. Thanks to all answering my newb questions. I feel that after years of pure bodybuilding exercises (though I still use them some) that this program is the key to 'real' strength....strength that you can actually use in real life if needed.