Handstand shoulder angle & routine advice

[Brendan Coad]

So....

Without a long introduction my immediate strength goals at the moment are a 10 sec freestanding handstand with a tuck-up. A bar muscle-up(not slow/controlled) and I want to work towards back lever or front lever but not sure which would be more beneficial to focus on to keep my body balanced with the other goals I would think working the back lever would be more beneficial but I would love some input on that. My immediate flexibility goal is the side splits.

I'll start off with what I do to train my flexibility:

Every morning when I wake up I go through joint mobility routine from Thomas Kurz stretching scientifically. I follow this with a static stretching routine for the splits. This routine includes stretches(in order) for lower back, glutes, groin, calves, hamstrings, inner thigh?, psoas, quad and then a stretch where I lie on my back and hold a straddle in the air. My flexibility started off so bad(and still is very poor) that I am seeing noticeable improvements without having to incorporate anything beyond static stretching( I have gleaned that active flexibility is important but haven't tried to figure out how/when/if to incorporate that yet). Here is a schedule of when I do the splits specific stretching routine:

Sun: morning; night

Mon:morning; pwo cooldown; night

Tuesday: morning; night

wednesday: morning; pwo cooldown; night

thursday:morning; night

Friday: morning only

Saturday: morning; afternoon

Sunday: morning; night

My routine for strength workouts is Monday/Wednesday/Friday:

Joint mobility warmup

Wrist routine

Idos shoulder stability routine

Idos squat clinic

Idos scapula mobility routine ( was in such poor condition at the beginning that these warmups were almost a workout )

10-15 minutes of handstand kickup/tuckup and wall alignment drills interspersed with straddle and L-sit floor compression exercises

Gatherings movement(first beginner variation from the video Ido showed basically from frog stance to headstand working on getting vertical every rep of every set, still very challenging)

Dips 3 sets of 5 reps. These are on P-bars and I think they are similar to russian dips. I am holding onto the dip handles of a power tower and pushing up from a pause then lowering down pausing( my dip ROM is pretty good I think) and then trying to lower my elbows doing negatives until I lose control and let go(does that make any sense)

Pullup superset 3 sets. Another set described by Ido. Wide grip pullups with a 3 sec (mississipi) negative followed by shoulder width 3 sec negative followed by chinups 3 second negative. It usually works out to 4X3X3 for the sets. Occasionally I can get 5 but I make sure to stop 1 rep before failure on each attempt.

Cooldown is the splits routine.

Sometimes on Tuesdays or Thursdays I will go down to the beach and practice kicking up into handstands with no wall(this is important for me, I just started this week but learning to accept and control the fear of falling on my butt is important )

Anyways heres a couple of pictures, I thought my shoulders were more open than they are. Obviously the alignment isn't good I am not trying to straighten off the wall in these just wanted to see how open my shoulders were.

My main concerns are whether and how I should program my handstand skill work throughout the week or if I just do it whenever I feel not worn down/find time to do it basically GTG'ing it. Also my strength work I'm a bit confused about but it seems OK for now, I'd like to work as optimally as possible however hence why I'm asking for help And finally how to program/periodize it all. As it is I just do the same thing for 8 weeks. Try to increase reps on the exercises and then rest after 8 weeks usually by cutting a few workouts and then reevaluate where I am.

Any suggestions, ideas, recommended courses of action or reading are all welcome.

[Guest]

Following Ido's routines is a wise decision. I would advise you to also include Coach Sommers wall extensions for shoulder flexibility, and to improve your HS alignment using stomach-to-wall HS. Also, push! Try to get your shoulders at ear level.

[braindx]

Everything looks fine. You can likely get a bit more volume with some pushing and pulling exercises.

Train back lever, front lever, and planche simultaneously would be beneficial. Have you read the link in my sig?

Straighten out that handstand though.

[Brendan Coad]

Everything looks fine. You can likely get a bit more volume with some pushing and pulling exercises.

Train back lever, front lever, and planche simultaneously would be beneficial. Have you read the link in my sig?

Straighten out that handstand though.

Thank you, I'm working stomach to wall to straighten the handstand. I was having my wife take a picture of my shoulder angle and I couldn't hold it off the wall long enough so I was falling backwards/arching but its not like I have much strength there yet anyways

I have read the link and some of your other stuff on that site, very informative/interesting. Sometimes I just worry about doing too much but maybe 60s of the 3 progressions per w/o so 3 days a week? The other option that comes to mind is a separate w/o m/t/th/fri just for the statics with the same warmup protocol.

The only other thing I know I am going to be adding is the wall extensions per Biomegs advice.

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

I have not posted here before and can not claim any expertise, only my personal experience. I am aiming for a 30 second free handstand (also a 10 seconds hold for the straddle front lever and back lever). I started all this because, to my surprise, I got my 10 seconds front lever pretty quickly after training for a little more than three months. So, the last four months I have been concentrating on getting my 30 seconds free handstand, starting with assistance from rubber bands and progressing to a 20 seconds free handstand after kicking away from the wall. Here is what helps me. Being patient, and not getting hung up on my goal, so I can enjoy all of it (no amazing zomba method 4 week results here). Getting my feet off the wall as soon as possible, even if I am still in a pike due to shoulder inflexibility (for me it will be a race between sufficiently improving my shoulder flexibility and being able to stay in a piked free HS for 30 seconds). Learning how to get my balance back is still the essential skill and body awareness seems to be the key. In my case, strength seems to be coming more rapidly than body awareness, but that has something to do with my age (I will be 69 next month). I am tall (6’ 1â€) and skinny (167 lbs) so lowering my center of gravity by straddling my legs also makes it easier to maintain my free HS. I suggest that you do your free handstand training right after your flexibility routine. Recently, I have started to do yoga stretches as a warmup, followed by headstand, tuck planche, elbow stand and then hand stand; it works great for me, maybe for you too. That also means that for me GTG’ing would not work. I can not comment on your strength programming, because I do a lot of sports specific power/endurance type training (i.e. training for veterans rowing races), and that is very different. Enjoy yourself.

[Brendan Coad]

Quick update:

Getting up into the handstand is getting alot better. Keeping up with all my stretching and adding prehab/rehab work in the form of wrist routine shoulder/scapula routines. Building up a lot of volume right now so I'm gonna have to cut it back in a week or two. Can definitely feel the fatigue building.

Took your advice Frits, just taking it slow and focusing on having fun and working technique my kickups. I have mostly curtailed my habit of looking too far forward and am just focusing on working my kickup technique plus body alignment stuff like headstands with longer holds for my skill work. Seems to be working well so far.

Haven't incorporated the levers/planche work yet but I'll add that in farther down the road once I feel ready to add more volume to my overall workouts and more volume that my wrists can handle without risk of injury.

Thanks for the advice.

[Brendan Coad]

Things have been going well. Incorporating everyone's input and it has been noticeably helping my progress/ enjoyment.

Here are a couple videos just to check my form on my main pulling/pushing exercises right now. I think pretty soon Ill be ready to move up in reps and sets. Right now its just 3x3 but I'm gonna stick with that for the rest of this cycle which is probably somewhere between 4-6 weeks left. I have to look back through my log to figure that out

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[Brendan Coad]

lmao, I just watched the videos for the first time and realized the TV was on and GI Jane is on in the background and it is very loud. BRB swapping audio tracks

[Blairbob]

It doesn't look like your elbows are locked out in your front lever/tops pull.

Can you false grip on those rings?

[Brendan Coad]

they seem like the may be a bit mor difficult to false grip on but my wrists are too weak to false grip right now. A problem I intend to fix at some point but not focusing on it at all currently.

I may not have locked out on one of the reps fully, the other I fully extend but immediately pull. I did another set where I held in extension a bit longer because I saw that issue but the memory card filled up about halfway through.

Should I hold fully locked out for a few seconds between reps or just make sure I am fully locked out?

[Brendan Coad]

Just a little update. Everything is still going well. Kicking up into handstands has been getting alot better, and I mean alot. I feel like if I keep gaining proficiency at a reasonable pace I should be pretty consistent with getting into a handstand within 6 months. Where I will actually be at I'll have to wait to see

My forearms splints(self diagnosed) are getting better. I cut out the tuck planche work that was causing it and replaced it with StW handstand holds for my static training. I went out and got a 5 gallon bucket and 10 lb bag of rice and have been working that into my daily routine for prehab/rehab/strength Put back lever back in. Also after reading a thread somewhere(I think it may be here) about retracting the scapula in front lever and it being natural in most trainees I realized that I wasn't doing it. First time I tried and did a full lay FL negative I wasn't able to hold the full lay but it felt super strong, I couldn't believe what a difference it made. So I'm continuing with my ADV tuck FL hold at 5 seconds which is now really easy and solid and added in tuck BL for the next 6 weeks. after that retest and set up the next SSC.

In other news I'm working on my CPT. I work in an office job and while I'm somewhat concerned about the earnings difference/ health benefits etc... I feel like its finally time to find a way to work in a field where I can enjoy what I do and where I believe my work is important. Its all part of the journey

Guess I just wanted to vent somewhere where I'm sure others might feel the same way.

[Brendan Coad]

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Constantly working on opening the shoulders more :|

[jl5555]

Getting those shoulders more properly aligned will help substantially as you won't have to rely so much on your arm strength to keep you up. So, in your prep before you have kicked up into the HS you go into a very short downdog position (inverted V on the floor). Try to add some time to this. You want to feel as though you are pushing the floor away with your hands and extending out from your scapulae. The wrists and hands should face forward and as you push away the elbows will rotate from facing in to facing forward. Your chest will drop towards the floor resulting in a slight back arch. Your legs should be active. Stay there for a few more seconds to allow your shoulders to open and the scapulae to pull off, around and then back.

Once you get the shoulders aligned you won't have as much arch in your back when you are up.

Your tuck up is great, keep that up; I wish my tuck up were so effortless...

[Brendan Coad]

OK I tried the down dog position and could feel my shoulders opening a bit. Definitely a lot weaker in that position but thats what happens when you enter a new range of flexibility right. And that opened me up just a little bit, I have a lot more to go obviously. Just gotta keep working at it.

Here's 3 more of me trying out opening my shoulders more and one of my StW handstand incase anyone can give me critique on that.

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[jl5555]

Cool. If you look at your video when you are in the down dog you can see how your alignment should be when vertical. Nice straight line from elbows to shoulders down to the sacrum. The idea then is to carry that to your handstand as best you can. Once you're established in the down dog and ready to go in to HS try to walk your feet in a bit maintaining your alignment and then just tuck up into your HS keeping your back straight.

[Brendan Coad]

Cool. If you look at your video when you are in the down dog you can see how your alignment should be when vertical. Nice straight line from elbows to shoulders down to the sacrum. The idea then is to carry that to your handstand as best you can. Once you're established in the down dog and ready to go in to HS try to walk your feet in a bit maintaining your alignment and then just tuck up into your HS keeping your back straight.

Awesome, thank you for the advice. Its funny how your brain can block out what should be obvious solutions because they're hard.

After getting the correct alignment it should be obvious that I should try to increase my flexibility and walk my feet up/tuck up with a straight back but since thats harder somehow it escaped me lol. I have read some postings around here saying that the 1 arm handstand is almost impossible to self teach. At this point I believe thats probably true because if I were working this skill with no guidance at all who knows how long it would take me to figure all this stuff out on my own, much less balancing on one arm.

Again thanks for all your help, I feel like I know the next stage I have to get to and now all I have to do is work at it.

[jl5555]

This website is great for providing those small bits of knowledge and advice that help you just "get it". You read of a certain technique or way of arranging your joints that makes all the difference.

Though I sort of disagree that 1 arm handstand is impossible to self teach. Ido posted something not long ago talking about helping Jamester out with his side body lever. I had been coming along ok with my 1 arm handstand but took the advice in that post and made a big leap in my ability. As a matter of fact I think that if you can get up into HS against the wall and hold it for 10-15 seconds then you should start playing with pulling up one hand. It helps in the growth of your HS abilities...

[Brendan Coad]

Well my handstand has been coming along slowly. Mostly because I'm not spending enough time on my hands. Been working the wrist routine and in September I attended one of Ido's seminars which has given me some good drills to work along with opening my eyes to alot of different things. Recently I have been playing around learning to rebalance freestanding even though I'm still not strong enough to spend too much time away from the wall yet. I think my shoulders are starting to open up some more and core strength is a glaring weakness I'm going to be focusing on.

Heres a few sets:

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[Brendan Coad]

OK here is a longer video that is just a sampling of a bit of tuckup work. I also have some stomach to wall HS, wrist pushups and I was going to try and record a decent wall run set but on about the fourth shoulder tap my elbow hit the shelf next to me and really threw me off so I stopped.

I feel like I'm making good progress with the wrist routine and my handstands are slowly getting more consistent. I've been trying to flatten out like you were advising JL5555 and using various drills and exercises to help including shoulder stretching just to help get more open. I definitely notice a difference in the compensation my lower back has when my shoulders are stretched better.

Right now I can't really work anything where my back rounds because of a SI issue(I believe) that I have due to being overzealous in my stretching.

Any advice anyone has to give is appreciated

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[Brendan Coad]

Just thought I'd post this as its the first "ah hah" moment I've had in a bit. Right around 16-17 seconds in the video I felt like I locked my body line(after watching the video I realize I'm still moving quite a bit but less so than before) and felt much stronger and more stable.

I don't have any specific advice I'm looking for as I feel confident that working everything I have been still has a long way to take me. But if anyone sees something that they believe commenting on would help I'd be glad to hear it.

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[yuri marmerstein]

your line is not bad, still some work to do but you'll get there

what I want to comment on is your hip movement. You are using your hips a lot to balance, and because of this, the corrective movements you make are rather large. Try to balance only with your hands, with the rest of your body locked in one position. Also, point your toes. In addition to making it more aesthetically pleasing, it will help to straighten you out more.

[Brendan Coad]

Thank you for your reply. Locking my line is something I know I need to work on butmy brain refuses to work inverted(go figure). I feel like I am on my way there though. I'm also going to focus on pointing my toes as it's something I haven't even done in my body line drills on the floor so it's not even in the sequence of what should become automatic. Maybe I'll tattoo "point your toes" across my knuckles(kidding of course). Again thanks for the insight.

[Blairbob]

You must point your toes...or you will invite my wrath were you my student/gymnast. Right off the floor.

It's not even for the aesthetic. It is necessary at a functional level to learning how to be tight.

[Brendan Coad]

Here is a video of a typical set. Right now I'm at 20-25% kickup without touching the wall at all. I noticed on this set I may have actually gotten into position if I started further from the wall and had the space to bring my legs together but I'm not sure. Not in need of the "next step" advice as I don't feel ready yet but wanted to post this for progression and if anyone sees something that could help.

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Still working on the toe point and hip movement.

[yuri marmerstein]

good work, keep training