Improving recruitment of 'Lats'

[George Launchbury]

Hi Everyone,

Hope you all had a good weekend?

I think that one of the culprits with my ongoing elbow(s) issue might be a lack of recruitment in my lats while performing pull-ups, and therefore too much work being done by my arms? If I think back I almost never got PWO soreness in my lats from pull-ups or chin-ups, but often got it in my biceps/brachialis and what felt like teres major.

Logic suggests that I should be doing some straight-arm work, such as front-lever progressions and possibly (very) assisted Iron Cross work? I have access to rings, a pull-up bar, Oly weights and some stretch bands at home, and also various cable machines and an assisted pull-up machine at my gym (that I can attach my rings to). I mention the latter as they might be useful for remedial work?

My only worry is that by approaching this incorrectly I might shift the problem elsewhere by over-recruiting teres major for example, and not improve the recruitment of the lats much, if at all!?

All thoughts, feedback and advice are (as always) welcome.

Many thanks,

George.

[XFatMan]

Hi George,

Not getting sore in your lats doesn't mean they're not being worked enough. To reduce your biceps work in pull-ups, you could use a wider grip. But then again, it will make the pull-ups a bit harder. Perhaps that's worth a try?

[George Launchbury]

Thanks XFatMan,

With wide-grip pull-ups I find I feel really weak because my arms are still trying to do the work, but are unable to do so because of the reduced leverage ...and I still feel almost no action from my lats during the movement!? Possibly the fact that I can bodyweight-row roughly the same amount of reps as I can pull-up for highlights this issue?

I was reading some stuff on t-nation this morning regards the subject of people usually having an imbalance toward being strong in the arms, or strong in the torso. Unfortunately, the advice given was more bodybuilding based than performance based ...as you would quite rightly expect from a bodybuilding site.

I guess I am thinking along the lines of how some folk require remedial exercises to get their glutes firing properly again, as initially other muscles pick up the slack when doing squats, deadlifts, etc ...almost like learning to effectively use the right muscles again!?

Something I read concerned doing a few sessions concentrating on using the lats with a low load, so that the body doesn't start to panic and recruit surrounding/alternative muscles to take over. Apparently the load can be increased quite quickly as the body re-learns, especially with the lats being quite responsive to training?

Cheers,

George.

[Guest Chiflado]

Seems like I remember reading that thumbless grip pull ups recruit the lats more... maybe give that a try? :?

[Guest Chiflado]

Here's an article I found... read the two paragraphs underneath "STEP NUMBER 1: GET YOUR LATS INTO THE PULL!" Maybe that will help you?

EDIT: Here's the link... http://www.powerathletesmag.com/archive ... ullups.htm

[John Sapinoso]

Instead of thinking of pulling your body up to the bar, think of pulling your elbows down to the floor, that usually helps.

[Scott Malin]

George,

I don't think you're so bad as to need remedial exercises. Try integrating a single leg, contralateral dumbbell row initiated by a shrug into your routine with the pullups. Technique, particularly the shrug is important to do correctly and with every repetition as it'll prevent you from using momentum to do the exercise and to also get the correct recruitment pattern. I've had success using this for bicep-dominant clients. If I can find a decent video of this exercise I'll post it. Keep in mind you're not aiming to do those things people call "rows" at the gym

[JoeS]

Do the front lever progression, George. There's no way you can do that and not recruit the lats. All of coach Sommer's assistance exercises are also useful, like yewkis, cranks, and ice cream makers.

[XFatMan]

I guess I am thinking along the lines of how some folk require remedial exercises to get their glutes firing properly again, as initially other muscles pick up the slack when doing squats, deadlifts, etc ...almost like learning to effectively use the right muscles again!?

Remedial exercises are just a make-up for bad form. If you squat, deadlift, or bench press or whatever with correct form right from the beginning, you will never need "Remedial Exercises". The fact that one is able to lift more weight doesn't mean one is stronger.

There's a guy at the gym where I work out who can squat 130 Kg for 3 reps with what he believes to be good form. After correcting his form, it turned out that he was unable to do a single rep with truly correct form with anything over 40 Kg. The point is that if you check your ego - and from reading your posts I'm pretty sure you do that - and insist on textbook form no matter what, your lats will eventually catch up. In my opinion, there is only one way to get better at doing pull-ups, which is doing pull-ups.

[George Launchbury]

Thanks everyone,

That's plenty to be getting on with!!! I'll definitely be concentrating on front-levers for the time being, that way I can carry on training without aggravating my elbows with more pull-ups for a while. I'll also read around the other suggestions, try a few out and I'll let you know how it pans out in case it helps anyone else.

Cheers,

George.

P.s. coreathlete ...be interested to hear more about the single leg, contralateral dumbbell row if you have time?

[Scott Malin]

George, it's a pretty simple variation (also called 1-arm/1-leg DB Row).

This is the standard procedure for it:

-Standing on right leg, hinged over at the waist, holding a dumbbell with the right hand and a stable waist high surface with the left.

-Left leg is lifted to form a "T" with your body

-Slide the right shoulder blade toward your spine and then lift the weight to your body by driving your elbow to the ceiling

Return to the start position and repeat for prescribed number of repetitions

-Switch sides and repeat

COACHING KEYS

-Move the shoulder blade, not the arm, to initiate the row

-Keep elbow close to the body as it passes the rib cage

-Keep back flat

-Fire back glute to keep leg extended and your toes pulled to your shin

-Keep knee of weightbearing leg slightly bent

-Stand on the same leg as the hand doing the lifting

The first tip is the most important and where the shrug comes in. The shrug is simply breaking down the movement into two parts: the shoulder movement and the row. After a couple weeks as your body assimilates the pattern you can put it in as a single movement. When you do your pull-ups try and aim for the same feel as when doing this exercise (allowing the lats, the bigger muscles, to do more work). It's an assistance exercise so don't slack on pull ups any.

Cory

[George Launchbury]

That's great, thanks!

George.

[Nic Scheelings]

Hi,

As a further tip i find doing pullups on just about anything as one of the best ways to impropve pullup strength and lat involvement. For example pullups on rafters, ropes, soccer goal, trees wateva! And also varying your grip and doing them in L-sit and inverted.

Hope this helps.

[George Launchbury]

Hi Demus,

Thanks for the tip.

In my further readings I found a couple of articles about elbow tendonitis being caused by trying to 'muscle' pull-ups with the arms, rather than using correct technique in terms of activating all the muscles that should be involved (including lats). The upshot was that medial elbow tendonitis (golfer's elbow) is generally caused by chin-ups, and lateral (tennis elbow) by pull-ups.

To tie this in with your post, I guess doing pull-ups with a mixed grip is going to keep working the lats every time, while varying the prime flexor of the elbow - either the biceps/brachialis for chins, or brachioradialis with pull-ups. I guess also the closer your hands are, the more you can muscle it up with your arms as well. Since it is a movement combining the elbow flexors and the lats (amongst others) it makes sense to work both to some degree.

Something I did notice today is that doing shoulder-width towel pull-ups dramatically changes the feel of the exercise, and also to some extent the path that my body takes. In the past it's been quite a straight line, but I found with the towels I kind of pivoted around the elbow more (with a lot less flexion of the elbow overall). Interesting on the grip front, as well!

Cheers,

George.

P.s. I would have thought inverted pull-ups were more of a trap/shoulder/bicep exercise?

[RyanH]

George,

Here's an article you may find interesting- Pain free pullup program.

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/flowcoach/?p=121

[Paul]

I used to get really bad elbow pain from pull ups/chin ups so I stopped doing them many years ago. I found that all the stuff I do on the rings is a good substitute. Front levers, 360° pulls etc. I did a test today and did 12 pull ups straight off at 156Lbs bodyweight. I felt my lats engage really well with no feeling of pain at all in my elbow so I may start including these again and see how it goes. I think all the ring work has taught me how to engage my lats as the pull ups felt way better than they used to.

Paul.