Sissy squats knee prehab

[John Sapinoso]

Found this the other day RWdwpohh8X4 on youtube.

Has anyone used these and found them helpful? Is the heel raising beneficial? Any other exercises? My knees tend to audibly crack at the bottom of SLS. Not painful but I'd rather have it stop. Shoulder rehab has stopped my shoulders from cracking and I'm hoping these will have the same effect for my knees. Rolling on medicine balls and this omnimassage ball (hard, tennis ball sized massage ball) I have have helped somewhat but I'd like to do more.

Much thanks,

Johnny.

[braindx]

Definitely NOT good.

Most people need stronger hamstrings/glutes to control knee action... not stronger quads.

Knees too far forward messes up proper knee biomechanics. This leads to patellofemoral syndrome, IT band problems, patellar tendonitis, etc.

Stay away. Far far away.

[Guest Ido Portal]

If you want to prehab/rehab the knees I strongly recommend these:

1. Release lateral aspect of the upper leg - by myofascial release and stretching.

2. Strengthen VMO - Peterson step ups and VMO sled drags are good and I also teach in my Vires workshops the VMO pistol and VMO shrimp.

3. Strengthen Hams. Both as hip extensors and knee flexors.

Ido.

[Jason Stein]

Ido,

Thanks for that.

jason

[John Sapinoso]

Braindx,

Thanks for that. Judging from my weak points in squats, I'm slightly quad dominant; but strangely enough my knees didn't pop on my SLS when I added these to warm up. Biomechanically what your saying makes more sense to me than my single isolated probably unrelated case of "success". It's more likely that practicing idos squat clinic and rolling out along my hams quads and IT band is what did it.

Ido,

Great stuff, thank you very much for the recommendations.

Johnny

[Cole Dano]

IMHO one needs to think of the leg holistically. One aspect of this is the front back balance of the leg. But in my experience when we talk about deep squats the deep hip/inner leg muscles are rarely mentioned.

Viewing patella therapy from the viewpoint of solely the VMO though structurally true, is a brute force method.

http://www.sports-injury-info.com/patella-femoral-syndrome-vmo.html

I would describe it like this: If one of the Golden Gates support pillars was twisted. You could just try to tighten the cables until they twisted the the system back together. But the better solution would be to bring the pillar back in line from the foundation deep under the sea.

In the same way working solely on the VMO is asking a leg extender to become a muscle of deep alignment. The deep hip/ muscles need to learn to track the femur to the patella, and in most cases the inner leg muscles need to hold the femur in. The system needs to learn to function as a system.

In the world of squats, there are two basic body weight varieties. The sissy squat is just a variation of the well known and ancient Hindu Squat. And when the holistic function of the leg good there is nothing wrong with its practice. As a prehab IMHO its great, as rehab no because first the student needs to learn the correct movement pattern.

For this BW flat foot knees back deep squats are wonderfully effective.

In my classes we do this exercise, take yoga block (or a suitable substitute) between your upper legs and to sit down feel as if someone is pulling it back and down. Feel the control of the legs coming from the groins which you are sending back as if you were pulling yourself down.

Done this way many will find the BW squat as working the deep hips and inner legs, and hopefully with time find how they will control the femoral alignment so the inner legs remain parallel rather than V out.

When coming back up to standing continue to send the block back, while simultaneously pulling the inner ankle up to the groin so the full inner leg works together. Once that is set you will notice the knee cap is lifted, work that more by drawing the inner kneecap up and sending it back as the calf works forward against it, to align the upper knee with the lower knee.

Of course there is more to this, but i think this gives the general idea.

That said, i have a feeling that Ido's VMO pistol and shrimp etc. are doing the same things in their own way. Ido can you elaborate on these exercises they sound really interesting?!

[Guest Ido Portal]

Mr Brady, nice 'holistic' talk, but I don't buy it. Here is why:

1. The VMO is a muscle that once 'activated' and brought into speed, tends to do its job later on.

2. Isolating the VMO is impossible. Even those exercises that I have suggested are merely putting more emphasize on it, but trying to isolate it have been proven impossible. (Even a large degree of activation is very difficult - for example, forget about VMO leg extension, and other old school physiotherapy BS)

3. I would rather reeducate the lower leg musculature, activate the necessary muscles, release and stretch the overpowering ones and then resume normal training and movement patterns - like deep squatting. Trying to go the other way around will result in further escalating the situation.

4. Trying to 'teach' a person correct squatting by aesthetic external means and manipulation will not be effective if the neural recruitment patterns and muscle balance is out of whack. This may result in more pleasing air squatting patterns, but under tension and loads - surprise: you have the same old problem showing its head again.

With all due respect to Yoga (I also use Yoga in my own training, for different goals) I do not believe it can help people deal with being under loads and tension - this can clearly be revealed through a simple tool such as a 'Klatt Test'.

Ido.

[Cole Dano]

Ido, i really think in our own way we are saying very similar, inter-related things.

As you just said the VMO can't be isolated but finding exercises that trigger it to work correctly as part of the system does. You call it your VMO series but your reply indicates that is in name only. At the same time you wonderfully point out that the lower leg needs to come into line, over tense muscles need to release and weak strengthen. That is a very holistic approach, which i figured yours would be, even if you prefer not to use that language, which is fine.

The work of the lower leg and work of the upper leg are really inter-related, in fact in yoga we normally start from the foot as well, and often that work will be enough to get the rest of the leg working 'holisticly'. So one could say we were talking about the two ends of the same line?

I know we are coming from totally different backgrounds, but ultimately when we are talking about simple movements like squatting its not i'm a yoga guy anymore. I try as best a possible to keep yoga specific stuff out of my postings because that's not the point of this forum.

BTW- i'm sorry i don't know anything about the Klatt test. Google didn't turn up anything comprehensible. To you tell me what it is in a nutshell?

This is a primitive movement, in fact until recently most everyone had to be able to squat comfortably numerous times a day in order to perform basic functions like relieving themselves. As such its not yoga to squat, or gymnastics, etc, its a lost basic thing that everyone used to do all the time, at least to the degree of what we see in the OP's question of the 'sissy squat'.

So where we somewhat differ is the work of re-training the movement pattern. I imagine your strengthening exercises are great and i honestly would be interested to know your VMO shrimp and pistol variations, not to pick them apart, but to have another tool in the tool box.

However, your main contention was that 'teaching' the squat doesn't work, if there is already an underlying problem. Of course that can be true, depending on how severe the case is one might have to step back, take a different approach.

What i suggested is merely part of a progressive approach to building up the correct neural patterning, realignment and strengthening. Where it comes in an individuals personal therapeutic program is individual. As is your program, i'm sure it doesn't start and stop with those few exercises.

Is this going to help under load? Only in the sense that it a step to building a good foundation by finding healthy movement patterns, in the case of the very weak (the populations i work with) even this will build strength, from there progressively adding load only to the point that the pattern doesn't break down, which is my take on what Coach Sommers' method is.

Many great athletes mentally train as well, they visualize the movements do them with low resistance to train the groove etc. True its not exactly the same as being under load but it can help, as a component in a comprehensive dare i say holistic program.

BTW- I don't know anything about the Klatt test and Google didn't turn up anything i could decipher. Can you describe it in a nutshell?

Sorry to the OP for this getting off track...

[Guest Ido Portal]

My friend,

no, we are talking about different things. I talk about neuro-muscular reeducation through corrective exercise, you are trying to achieve a similar neuro-muscular effect through mere instruction and tinkering of the squat. Similar methods have been used by physiotherapists with elastic bands and other means, but they have been shown to fail. (Trying to press out with the knees against an elastic while squatting, etc...)

Also, I am aware of the importance of squatting and its role in human patterns of movement. This is irrelavent.

I do not have the time to sit and write a Klutt Test review or to go through my VMO exercises. If I have put them into my workshops it is because I think this is the best way to teach them, and not through a post in an internet forum.

Ido.

[jamesters]

I do not have the time to sit and write a Klutt Test review or to go through my VMO exercises.

I believe it, because you must not have had enough time to even check your spelling, LOL!

About the sissy squats, I actually left a comment on that video when I first saw it long ago.

"It's possible to do these touching the knees all the way down to the floor for whoever wants a challenge. You can train for that first by holding on to an object with your hand, both for balance and to assist on the way up. Eventually your balance and strength can develop so you don't need the assist anymore "

[Cole Dano]

Oh i meant to post this as an interesting 'variation' of a Hindu style squat.

g73ZX-LUw6s

[Jason Stein]

I don't know anything about the Klatt test and Google didn't turn up anything i could decipher. Can you describe it in a nutshell?.

Mr. Brady,

If you persevere a bit with Google you'll find info on the Klatt test; it is basically a very useful way to diagnose individual imbalances in each leg, i.e. ad/abductor, glute, ham, VMO. 'Useful' because unlike other leg strength ratio tests it doesn't involve power cleaning.

The sissy squats are also similar to Coach Sommer's inward squats for medial knee pre/rehab.

best,

jason

[Guest Ido Portal]

The sissy squats are also similar to Coach Sommer's inward squats for medial knee pre/rehab.

I disagree, Jason. Where do you see the similarity?

Ido.

[Jason Stein]

Ido,

The sissy squat looks like the start of a beginner inward squat. They also remind me of 'Hindu' squats.

best,

jason

[Guest Ido Portal]

Maybe externally, but you miss the whole point of the inward squat - to put pressure and ignite adaptation from the medial soft tissue structures.

The sissy squat involves higher Pattelo Femoral Stress, which some people will healthy knees wont have problem with, but they will also offer very little in terms of productive adaptation of problematic weak structures.

Ido.

[Jason Stein]

Ido,

I understand the point of the inward squat. In certain contexts, for those with medial meniscal knee problems, shallow sissy squats are an excellent precursor to inward squats. The opposite is not necessarily true.

best,

jason

[Nick Van Bockxmeer]

can someone please explain this inward squat for me

[Guest Ido Portal]

Those are better be learned hands on in Coach Sommer's seminar.

Ido.

[John Sapinoso]

found this off t-nation

"

the klatt test is essentially a 1 leg depth jump where the athlete needs to stick the landing. The height of the box/step should start low (6'') and gradually be increased by 2''. You only increase the height of the box if the athlete passes at the previous height.

The coach watches how the athlete attempts to stick the landing. For instance if the athlete's:

- knee caves in = weak vmo

- hops forward = week hammies

- bends forward at the waist = weak glutes

- hops inward = weak adductors

- hops outward = weak abductors

- heel rotates in = weak hip rotators

the test ends when the athlete displays 2 or more of the above at a certain height. "

going to try it today, but if my SLS knee patterns are anything to judge by, my VMO is weak.