Prerequisites?

[Joshua Naterman]

I sure do!

I do fingers back first, and fingers forward last. That's mostly because I want to lengthen my wrist flexors over time, and if I had my fingers back for the last hold I'd end up encouraging them to be shorter.

[ASForum]

  slizzardman said:

When you can, work the XR Support position as well. By the time you develop your floor L-sit and your XR support, your elbows should be close to ok for german hangs. I have noticed that 60s planche leans are causing rapid improvements in my biceps tendons. Perhaps that will help you as well.

So you suggesting to totally wait for German Hangs until L-sit and XR supports get stable?

[Rafael David]

if I can do a straddle L I need to work the L-sit? since the L-sit is prerequisite for the straddle L?

[Rafael David]

I mean, if I can do a harder variation of a particular exercise (FSP or FBE) I still need to work on easier?

[Joshua Naterman]

  crashnburn said:

  slizzardman said:

When you can, work the XR Support position as well. By the time you develop your floor L-sit and your XR support, your elbows should be close to ok for german hangs. I have noticed that 60s planche leans are causing rapid improvements in my biceps tendons. Perhaps that will help you as well.

So you suggesting to totally wait for German Hangs until L-sit and XR supports get stable?

ONLY if you have serious elbow issues. For most people, starting german hangs with feet on the ground as a partial assist will be fine. You may have to work into it slowly, but you WILL get it!

[Joshua Naterman]

  Mikael said:

I mean, if I can do a harder variation of a particular exercise (FSP or FBE) I still need to work on easier?

The hardest variation you can do will be your work sets. The easier ones will be warm up sets! Each position or movement works and emphasizes different muscles, so you really do need to do those warm up sets to keep your body balanced and healthy. A great example is the pull up and dip variations. Each of those variations works very, very different muscles and just one set of each as a warm up to the work sets is enough to maintain your musculature and motor patterns. It also happens to be a great way to build up work capacity!

[Rafael David]

Thanks! mercuryashes and slizzardman! was a great help! :wink:

[Rafael David]

guys! just one more small question ... when is the ideal jumping off a variation of FBE to another? when you can do over 10 reps?

[Rafael David]

only 3-5 reps?! then it is easier than I thought ... For example, if I can do three reps I should increase up to 5 reps in the next SSC? after five solid reps I change to a more difficult exercise, can this be?

[Erik Sjolin]

Well, depending on your base level of strength, it could take a long time to go through some of the variations, like the Bowers for example. I've spent the last five months or so working on a simple chest roll to HeS. Easy enough, but I can only get about 3x2 of the next variation.

There's also a lot of other factors involved; intensity, recovery, how often you train, etc.

[Rafael David]

if I do that, I'll do low reps in the warm up, but (if I am not mistaken) the Coach Sommer said it's good spur the body to a variety of repetitions... my training is always embedded work, I usually increase the reps and / or sets before jumping to another variation, because this way (3-5 reps already and can skip) the warm up would not be the same, since I do high reps in the warmup... I mean, I do tuck FL row (20 reps), then flat tuck FL row (15 reps) and then do the main thing is the straddle FL row (5 reps)...

[Tarun Suri]

  Blairbob said:

basic PB support. PB support and ring support are not the same.

I saw this a long time ago. But I must say, I don't understand why they are different. I would assumed that XR is simply a harder variation due to the instability of the rings. Am I mistaken?

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I have a question or two as well after going through this thread for the second time...

I understand that I need to be able to do 3x30 german hangs before I start working on back levers, but how will I scale the WODS that call for BL's? Should I just replace any BL work with german hangs?

Another question I have, how are most people here incorporating statics into the WODs? I've read that some statics can be done 3-4 times a week, but Coach only posts them about once per week.

[Cole Dano]

Good questions Patrick.

Here's what i do, for 'daily' static work (before every WOD) i'm building up on 3 progressions: FL, BL, Planche.

I started from the bottom, which means right now my working static sets are

FL: build to 3x60sec hollow hold

BL: build to 3x60sec arch hold

Pl: build to 3x60 sec L sit (not advanced L)

since this is all pretty non-destructive i do push myself to a comfortable limit, but more than my 50%. I do think these are absolutely ESSENTIAL so i've decided not to take any shortcuts here.

Now when it comes up in a WOD i do the best variation of a FL or BL that i can, usually its advanced tuck for me right now. I belive this is in keeping with Coach Sommer's general method.

[Blairbob]

Yep, I would generally do all FSP's warmup then the FSP SSC, then the WOD.

[Razz]

  RandomHavoc said:

  Blairbob said:

basic PB support. PB support and ring support are not the same.

I saw this a long time ago. But I must say, I don't understand why they are different. I would assumed that XR is simply a harder variation due to the instability of the rings. Am I mistaken?

If you keep your palms facing each other on rings like you do on pbars it may be what you say, but when you turn your rings out it is much more stressful on the biceps tendon which is why it's considered a different element.

[Joshua Naterman]

  Patrick Smith said:

I have a question or two as well after going through this thread for the second time...

I understand that I need to be able to do 3x30 german hangs before I start working on back levers, but how will I scale the WODS that call for BL's? Should I just replace any BL work with german hangs?

Another question I have, how are most people here incorporating statics into the WODs? I've read that some statics can be done 3-4 times a week, but Coach only posts them about once per week.

When Coach posts static work in a WOD, it is usually intended to be a strength element. In the warm up you should be working on pre-requisites, but in the WOD where the static is called for you usually would want to do whatever variation you could that meets the time requirement. Like you said, that only happens occasionally. Most of the time you would be working on the pre-requisites in your warm up and waiting to try toe actual static until you have finished the pre-requisite progressions. When you have finished them your progress in the statics will be much faster. If you do not know the pre-requisite progressions you would want to look into doing some variation of the FSP warm up that I have suggested many times.

in BL WODs you will be best off scaling to GH work until you can easily do 3x30s with short rests (60s or less) between sets. At that point you would just do one 30s GH before getting started with the warm up. That's to KEEP the GH once you develop it well.

Havoc: Like Razz has said, to some degree it IS another progression but at the same time the purpose is different. You can't do XR support if you can't do PB support, that's just basic strength there. The XR supports are excellent elbow conditioners, they are the first step in the IC conditioning process. Consider then that they are also going to be very good for planche development.

[Tarun Suri]

Ok. I can do 2x15s support holds or 3x10s holds. I just wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to go back to pb holds unless it was an element to learn on its own rather than just a regression. I guess a better question would be: If I can hold a pb support hold for 1 minute quite easily, is there any benefit in occasionally doing that hold or have milked all that I can from that position?

[Nicholas Sortino]

  RandomHavoc said:

Ok. I can do 2x15s support holds or 3x10s holds. I just wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to go back to pb holds unless it was an element to learn on its own rather than just a regression. I guess a better question would be: If I can hold a pb support hold for 1 minute quite easily, is there any benefit in occasionally doing that hold or have milked all that I can from that position?

  slizzardman said:

Havoc: Like Razz has said, to some degree it IS another progression but at the same time the purpose is different. You can't do XR support if you can't do PB support, that's just basic strength there. The XR supports are excellent elbow conditioners, they are the first step in the IC conditioning process. Consider then that they are also going to be very good for planche development.

I would venture to say there is a progression in between PB supports and XR supports, and possibly a good substitution for PB supports if you have rings but no dip station.

XR Plank Holds. They have the advantage of working the biceps tendons like an XR support, but to a lesser degree, and also work a decent hollow position. I personally realized my XR supports were garbage (I was not locking my elbows fully) and have gone back and started on these. Once I can do 3x60sec XR plank with RTO and no more and 60sec rest, I will begin on the supports. By this time my elbows will have already started to condition to the instability and RTO angle of the support, that they would not have received if I was doing PB supports.

If you cannot hold a good XR support (like me), but PB supports are easy, or you dont have access to do them easily, I would suggest trying out the XR planks. Just like a support lock your elbows and turn the rings out. I think you will make a smoother progression this way, with much less risk of injury to the biceps tendon.

[Joshua Naterman]

  RandomHavoc said:

Ok. I can do 2x15s support holds or 3x10s holds. I just wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to go back to pb holds unless it was an element to learn on its own rather than just a regression. I guess a better question would be: If I can hold a pb support hold for 1 minute quite easily, is there any benefit in occasionally doing that hold or have milked all that I can from that position?

You always want to hit something in the prerequisite list that you have mastered once a week, just to maintain it. Especially supports and hangs. Many times the WODs and the full FSP progressions themselves will handle the maintenance, but there are a few small things that have to be re-visited on a regular basis just to be sure that you maintain those abilities.

[ASForum]

Blairbob.. Can you/we do the following?

- Make a STICKY of the Pre-requisites

- Updates the 1st POST of the thread with a Pre-requisites chart e.g. PL Leans < Frog-Tuck < And/OR L-Sit < German Hangs

Have several of such comparative < of pre-reqs (missing from BtGB) towards the elements that are there in BtGB.

- We keep adding/ updating experiences from new posts and user experiences into the "1st post".

It would be a nice place for this 'missing' & 'frequently' asked errata (things missing from the Book). Also, help prevent injuries for a lot of us who start much below the BtGB starting standards

[Blairbob]

Umm, this is really seminar material in the first place. I've been thinking lately on it but have yet to take any action.

[Cole Dano]

Coach Sommer makes it pretty clear that what happens in the seminar stays in the seminar. I think that's pretty fair.

Some things have slipped out but as of yet in a piecemeal fashion, that's on purpose.

The one thing that IMHO could be reconsidered are the very elementary parts of the FSP progressions that aren't in the book. And making the timings more clear as these two things are causing a great deal of confusion, and could be regarded as part of the book.

I'd propose putting out the few missing FSP elements, and timings as general as possible not too much, because the book is really essential for this program. A sort of Errata thread.....

BlairBob how do you feel about this?

This is very clearly 100% Coach Sommer's prerogative, and so it should be. However if there is a consensus among the mods we could ask him.

[Blairbob]

We should probably just move this discussion to the Graduate Studies program. My thought was to go through the threads and transfer inadvertently released material to that forum. Purposely released program material would be left alone.

[Adriano Katkic]

Should these prerequisites (planks, holds, supports) be treated like FSPs; held for 50% max effort until 60 cumulated seconds for entire SSC? When do they become obsolete?

It is stated on this topic that previous FSP variations are held for maintenance for 30 seconds before actual work and I've read on some other topic it was 60 seconds. Which one is correct?

When doing FSP work sets, I rest 30 seconds between sets. Should I rest more?