Pull ups/squats/pushups V. static variations? or both?

[Guest shalak1989]

First off I know I have a post right beneath this and I hope thats not a problem as it was an equipment question.... anyway

I have seen some stuff about the isometrics and the time under contraction idea as well. I read Coach Sommers beginning article a little bit ago which is what got me to this forum in the first place.

My question is are static holds on a pull up bar, I.E. holding yourself at the top for a period of time much superior to working on pull up reps themselves? Or is it that you really need to do both because both work different muscle ranges/tissues etc?

Same question with a squat vs. a wall-sit for example

and the same question with a push-up vs, holding the position midway or maybe even holding a handstand.... I've read elsewhere that isometrics only train a limited range of motion but if im not mistaken Coach Sommer would disagree and if I am remembering correctly he had an athlete of his who didn't really do pull ups just randomly bust out some 18 or more reps without it even bothering him one time....

The entire reason im asking this is because if its a waste of time for me to train one or the other id rather not waste the time, and im talking about basic push ups not the planche/pike etc.... until I get a hold of the book ill be training without it so trying to figure out an effective and efficient set of exercises to use.

[Neal Winkler]

It all depends. Can you do pullups? Can you squat at all?

[Guest shalak1989]

yes I can do both squats (bodyweight) and pull-ups I was just wondering if based on the time under contraction thing if holding them in a state of constant contraction was better than going through the dynamic motion.... asking that because in Coach Sommer's article he seems to be talking about the idea that putting the body through a constant contraction in a disadvantaged position or whatnot is great for strength development, maybe im misunderstanding which is why I am posting the question about the static holds v. the dynamic movements

[Joshua Naterman]

You're definitely a little confused, but that's all right!

Isometric holds, submaximal tempo kinetic strength work, reactive/explosive strength work, and maximal strength work all complement each other. Each builds upon a physical attribute that enhances the others. Isometrics help with fiber type conversion, neural learning of the proper position, and in the case of some of the FSP, connective tissue enhancement, as well as some strength gains. MAXIMAL isometrics can drastically increase maximal strength, which in turn increases ability in the other areas of athletic expression. Submaximal full ROM kinetic, or moving, work helps move blood throughout the muscles used in the full range of motion, conditions the nervous system to maintain position while moving, and through the bloodflow promotes healing. Depending on the intensity and tempo, submaximal full ROM kinetic work can also enhance strength/endurance and to some degree maximal strength. Reactive/explosive strength work trains the nervous system to fire more motor units at once, and allows the body to experience much higher forces than it experiences with even maximal strength work and thus builds stronger muscles, bones, and tendons/ligaments, all of which enhances maximal strength. Maximal kinetic work pushes the muscles to their limits, causing them to grow more contractile fibers. This also causes nervous system adaptations to allow for more action potentials which leads to greater isometric, reactive/explosive, and submaximal ability. See, it forms this circle that constantly enhances each component of athletic ability

Isometrics will usually never replace dynamic exercises, but used properly Isometrics can drastically enhance your strength, and do so quickly.

The proper use of Isometrics is actually a little difficult to get used to, because there should be NO MOVEMENT WHATSOEVER. When you're done with the hold, you let go and drop, you don't lower or pull/push up. Even a small amount of eccentric movement causes massive damage int he muscles compared with no movement. So you want to minimize lowering to absolutely none, if possible.

See, a true isometric does almost no protein damage. That makes the recovery from such training PURELY CNS recovery, which is a big advantage because this means there's not hardly any healing to be done, which means you go straight into supercompensation.

The problem with using maximal isometrics exclusively is that, with the exception of the extreme stretched position, they tend to produce the most strength gains 15 degrees from the hold in both directions. So, you'd have to do 5-6 maximal Isometric contractions (that's a hold with enough weight to limit you to 10-20s of a perfect hold) to build significant strength through the entire ROM without missing anything. This is a HUGE drain on the CNS, because that's a lot of motor unit activity. Neurotransmitters get used like crazy! If you were to try to do this sort of thing for every basic exercise you'd be exhausted in no time flat. Maximal isometrics are great tools, but if you overuse them you WILL be exhausted and all of your training will suffer. Even if used for only one hold per exercise, there will be a long recovery time for the CNS. That's why you only do them once every 7-12+ days. The more outside training you do, the longer you'll need to rest. You will see your strength go up, up, up! if you do this properly.

If you're not using maximal isometrics, but instead using submaximal isometrics for strength work in the basic dynamic movements like squats and pull ups you're sort of wasting valuable training time and energy. They are best used for long holds of 3-5 minutes, for the purpose of converting the adaptable muscle fibers to a faster-twitch function. This isn't strength work so much as muscle reconfiguration. The maximal isometrics will make you strong in a hurry, as long as you only do them once every 7-12 days, depending on what your other training is.

The static positions we use here are submaximal in nature, but for slightly different reasons. Gymnastic positions are low leverage, which puts a lot of stress on connective tissues. They take time to adapt, and if you work them maximally then they cannot heal as fast as you damage them. Therefore, we perform the FSP in a submaximal fashion. There ARE some exceptions, like L-sit and Straddle- L, where you can work a bit harder without hurting yourself, but these tend to develop active flexibility and muscle control more than connective tissue strength. ALL of these sub-maximal holds WILL influence the adaptable muscle fibers to shift to a faster-twitch mode of operation, and will increase your POTENTIAL for maximal strength and reactive strength, but will not take you close to that potential themselves. They also serve as a motor learning tool, so that you learn to feel the positions that later exercises start from or move through.

Don't get me wrong, these FSP holds will make you stronger, but if you're looking to be a squat or pull up beast you'll need to combine maximal isometrics, reactive and explosive work, maximal full ROM dynamic (moving) strength work, submaximal isometrics and recovery methods. These are pretty much all worked into the GB WODs except for maximal isometrics. On leg days you could, and if you want to really have a super strong lower body then you SHOULD, do a few full ROM leg exercises that follow the theme of that day's WOD. Dynamic day would be clean pulls, snatch pulls, or KB swings and maximal day would be like 5-3-1 heavy Ass To Ground (ATG) squats or something. All of this is why the WODs are so incredibly good.

If you go to the seminars and learn exactly what the WOD schedule is, or if you look through the WOD forum and write out a few months of the WODs, you'll know exactly where to put your maximal isometrics so that they won't drain you for the other workouts and so that you don't end up doing too much work.

My maximal isometric work centers purely around the most important lifts: Deadlift, squat, pull up, bench, standing shoulder press. I'm not doing doing standing shoulder press or pull up right now because I am doing scaular and shoulder rehab, and I'm not comfortable with my stability. You will find that your weight in the squat and bench isometrics will probably go up at least 30-40 lbs a month for the end range hold. I don't know how much for bottom position. There are a few other lifts I will probably throw in as time goes on, but not many. Doing too much is just as bad as doing nothing.

Always start out at less than your true 10-20s max so that you learn proper position. That's probably the single best thing about submaximal isometrics: You learn the position you are in. Take 4-6 workouts to slowly work up to your first real 10-20s max on the bottom positions. You should be fine with end ROM right from the start.

I seriously went from doing 330 lbs to 725 on the smith machine bench in about 3 months. Every week I'd be throwing 20-40 lbs on the bar, almost. There were a few weeks where I went from an 11 second hold to a 25 second hold, and then I increased weight the next week, by 20-40 lbs. If you do this with free weights you MUST be in a power rack. There is no other acceptable place to train this way. You will totally die if you do this without excessive safety equipment like a power rack protecting you. My full ROM barbell bench went up from 315 to 385. This kind of thing CAN and WILL happen with proper scheduling.

If you try to do too much when you get excited about your results, your gains will slow down and stop, and you may even go backwards.

The most important thing is that you get into the WODs. You will experience great gains!

[Guest shalak1989]

thanks for the information, there is something though, I plan on only using bodyweight for training, I don't want to use weights, not exactly because im worried about turning into the hulk but bodyweight workouts can be done with minimal to no equipment, use the body as a stabilizer etc.... so I am assuming all of what you just said still applies to bodyweight only training.

[Joshua Naterman]

The basic concepts certainly apply no matter where the resistance comes from! The "problem" with bodyweight-only training is that the forces you can explose your body to are inherently limited by your bodyweight. You will never achieve your maximal strength potential, or even come close to it. If that's not one of your goals, then that limitation doesn't matter!

There are plenty of ways to work around these limitations and become a highly trained athlete without added weight. You'll do more than the normal amount of reactive training! This MUST be approached cautiously and with a pre-planned progression that is designed within the limits of the body's adaptive ability, but it can certainly be done. You'll need to do a lot of altitude drops onto flat grassy dirt or sand to minimize the impact stress on the bones. I don't recommend trying to design this program by yourself.

When you say bodyweight only, and no/minimal equipment, what exactly do you have in mind?

[Enchiridion]

The proper use of Isometrics is actually a little difficult to get used to, because there should be NO MOVEMENT WHATSOEVER. When you're done with the hold, you let go and drop, you don't lower or pull/push up. Even a small amount of eccentric movement causes massive damage int he muscles compared with no movement. So you want to minimize lowering to absolutely none, if possible.

What do you mean here? What do you mean eccentric movement? Aren't those the ones that move away (e.g. lowering from a pullup)? Don't you mean concentric movement, which is what it would be if you start to pull up, in any case? Could you explain this no movement whatsoever?

That's why you only do them once every 7-12+ days.

Doing statics once every 7-12 days? What are you talking about?

[James Portillo]

The proper use of Isometrics is actually a little difficult to get used to, because there should be NO MOVEMENT WHATSOEVER. When you're done with the hold, you let go and drop, you don't lower or pull/push up. Even a small amount of eccentric movement causes massive damage int he muscles compared with no movement. So you want to minimize lowering to absolutely none, if possible.

What do you mean here? What do you mean eccentric movement? Aren't those the ones that move away (e.g. lowering from a pullup)? Don't you mean concentric movement, which is what it would be if you start to pull up, in any case? Could you explain this no movement whatsoever?

That's why you only do them once every 7-12+ days.

Doing statics once every 7-12 days? What are you talking about?

That first paragraph is really straightforward.. what is there not to understand? For example, if you're working a tuck planche you are PRESSING against the floor/paralettes/dumbbells/etc. which is your CONcentric action.. if you lower then that is the ECCentric action. So in the case of a planche, make sure you are never lowering down eccentrically towards the floor.

[Joshua Naterman]

The proper use of Isometrics is actually a little difficult to get used to, because there should be NO MOVEMENT WHATSOEVER. When you're done with the hold, you let go and drop, you don't lower or pull/push up. Even a small amount of eccentric movement causes massive damage int he muscles compared with no movement. So you want to minimize lowering to absolutely none, if possible.

What do you mean here? What do you mean eccentric movement? Aren't those the ones that move away (e.g. lowering from a pullup)? Don't you mean concentric movement, which is what it would be if you start to pull up, in any case? Could you explain this no movement whatsoever?

That's why you only do them once every 7-12+ days.

Doing statics once every 7-12 days? What are you talking about?

That first paragraph is really straightforward.. what is there not to understand? For example, if you're working a tuck planche you are PRESSING against the floor/paralettes/dumbbells/etc. which is your CONcentric action.. if you lower then that is the ECCentric action. So in the case of a planche, make sure you are never lowering down eccentrically towards the floor.

Right, right. To clarify ( or perhaps, to confuse): With the statics we do here as FSP, you need to consider them submaximal isometrics. We hold them for half our max time, which makes them less than max holds, also known as sub-maximal. These do not put anywhere near as much demand on the nervous system, which is why they can be done steady state with good results and also why they can be done 4 days per week with no problems. You should never be approaching your max hold time during FSP work on any kind of a regular basis.

The MAXIMAL isometrics I am talking about are more specifically maximal AN-1 isometrics. They are specifically targeting the muscle fibers that primarily run on the Creatine-Phosphate energy system. 20s will be a true max hold. Once you can hold 20s on these, it's time to up the weight because your AN-2 fibers(these are the ones that run primarily on glycogen, which is stored sugar) are starting to adapt to the load and the goal of these is to increase the top-end fiber capabilities for maximum power output.

The reason you shouldn't do these more than once every 7-10 days is that they are quite draining on the nervous system, even though they don't feel like it at the time. Doing them more often than that will result in less than ideal gains in strength due to nervous system depression. See, the idea is that you shock both the nervous system and the fibers. The fibers heal themselves relatively quickly because little damage is done. The nervous system is what needs more 'rest'. It doesn't need straight time off, but it needs an extended period of a week or so where it is not having to produce it's maximum amount of action potentials, which are the nerve signals that cause muscle contractions. By doing this, the nervous system will become more coordinated and efficient, allowing for more action potentials! This double adaptation of both muscle fibers AND the nervous system is why strength gains come so quickly with maximal isometrics, and they will transfer partially to your full ROM ability.

The percentage of strength transfer from isometrics to the FULL range of motion is relatively small, but because the gains are so large on the isometric side it still leads to massively enhanced performance! When I did these in the Navy I had increased my flat bench press from right around 310 lbs to 385 lbs in 3-4 months. My isometrics went from 350 lbs to 725 lbs at the end range! Yea. That's right. I gained 375 lbs on my isometric, but "only" 75 lbs on my full ROM bench. I experienced similar gains in my front squat. I actually stopped loading the bar at 725 because it was the only bar we had, and I didn't want to ruin it. This WAS on a Smith machine, just so you know. My free-weight isometric was around 430 lbs. I didn't use free weights because it wasn't safe to do so on the ship underway.

Now, whether isometrics are submaximal or maximal they must be absolutely motionless. That won't happen at first, but you shouldn't move on until you achieve true isometric contraction for the prescribed amount of time. If you're teeter-tottering in advanced frogstand for 60s you should stay at advanced frog until you can consistently do perfectly still 60s single sets.

Using a loaded exercise like what I did with the bench press will DRASTICALLY accelerate strength gains. With straight arm work it is important to remember that this increased strength is not going to protect your elbows, so you need to stick to the steady state cycle for planche and BL. With FL, just doing this type of work with body lever and pull up holds will drastically shorten the time it takes you to achieve a full lay FL. I don't know about L-sit or straddle L, I haven't gotten to play with abdominal or hip flexor isometrics yet. I'd recommend that anyone who does the isometrics at least do one for each body motion, so bench, squat, pull up, overhead press, body row, and deadlift, Natural leg curl/GHR or back extension.

Finally, I'm not saying OR implying you have to do this to achieve your basic strength goals here. ALL I am saying is that this practice, done right, will not interfere with the rest of the program and WILL drastically increase your gains. You have to be smart about this and not do too much. That is where most people often fail.

[Enchiridion]

Right, right. To clarify ( or perhaps, to confuse): With the statics we do here as FSP, you need to consider them submaximal isometrics. We hold them for half our max time, which makes them less than max holds, also known as sub-maximal. These do not put anywhere near as much demand on the nervous system, which is why they can be done steady state with good results and also why they can be done 4 days per week with no problems. You should never be approaching your max hold time during FSP work on any kind of a regular basis.

The MAXIMAL isometrics I am talking about are more specifically maximal AN-1 isometrics. They are specifically targeting the muscle fibers that primarily run on the Creatine-Phosphate energy system. 20s will be a true max hold. Once you can hold 20s on these, it's time to up the weight because your AN-2 fibers(these are the ones that run primarily on glycogen, which is stored sugar) are starting to adapt to the load and the goal of these is to increase the top-end fiber capabilities for maximum power output.

The reason you shouldn't do these more than once every 7-10 days is that they are quite draining on the nervous system, even though they don't feel like it at the time. Doing them more often than that will result in less than ideal gains in strength due to nervous system depression. See, the idea is that you shock both the nervous system and the fibers. The fibers heal themselves relatively quickly because little damage is done. The nervous system is what needs more 'rest'. It doesn't need straight time off, but it needs an extended period of a week or so where it is not having to produce it's maximum amount of action potentials, which are the nerve signals that cause muscle contractions. By doing this, the nervous system will become more coordinated and efficient, allowing for more action potentials! This double adaptation of both muscle fibers AND the nervous system is why strength gains come so quickly with maximal isometrics, and they will transfer partially to your full ROM ability.

The percentage of strength transfer from isometrics to the FULL range of motion is relatively small, but because the gains are so large on the isometric side it still leads to massively enhanced performance! When I did these in the Navy I had increased my flat bench press from right around 310 lbs to 385 lbs in 3-4 months. My isometrics went from 350 lbs to 725 lbs at the end range! Yea. That's right. I gained 375 lbs on my isometric, but "only" 75 lbs on my full ROM bench. I experienced similar gains in my front squat. I actually stopped loading the bar at 725 because it was the only bar we had, and I didn't want to ruin it. This WAS on a Smith machine, just so you know. My free-weight isometric was around 430 lbs. I didn't use free weights because it wasn't safe to do so on the ship underway.

Now, whether isometrics are submaximal or maximal they must be absolutely motionless. That won't happen at first, but you shouldn't move on until you achieve true isometric contraction for the prescribed amount of time. If you're teeter-tottering in advanced frogstand for 60s you should stay at advanced frog until you can consistently do perfectly still 60s single sets.

Using a loaded exercise like what I did with the bench press will DRASTICALLY accelerate strength gains. With straight arm work it is important to remember that this increased strength is not going to protect your elbows, so you need to stick to the steady state cycle for planche and BL. With FL, just doing this type of work with body lever and pull up holds will drastically shorten the time it takes you to achieve a full lay FL. I don't know about L-sit or straddle L, I haven't gotten to play with abdominal or hip flexor isometrics yet. I'd recommend that anyone who does the isometrics at least do one for each body motion, so bench, squat, pull up, overhead press, body row, and deadlift, Natural leg curl/GHR or back extension.

Finally, I'm not saying OR implying you have to do this to achieve your basic strength goals here. ALL I am saying is that this practice, done right, will not interfere with the rest of the program and WILL drastically increase your gains. You have to be smart about this and not do too much. That is where most people often fail.

I see, thanks for the clarification.

I read all that you wrote carefully, but since I don't really know about gymnastics and some of the words and terminologies it has, I have to ask: are maximal isometrics x exercises, and submaximal isometrics different exercises? Or is the only difference is that submaximal you hold them half the time and maximal as much as you can, but they remain the same exercise?

As an aside, will PPP help you with the planche progressions? I can't do the frog stand like the boy in the article here so I really hate doing it, and I would prefer to do the advanced frog stand instead of the regular one (is this the advanced frog stand? http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=EOdIsHxW7Kc) but I can't do it either, so that's why it's not much of an incentive for me to keep doing it.

[MCem222]

Slizzardman, is it possible to work isometrics at various degrees for increased performance on the full ROM? For example, for pullups, an isometric hold with the elbow at a 130 degree angle, then 90, then at the top?

Similarly, I know an exercise called "frenchies" in which you hold a pull up at the bottom, middle, and top, but done for multiple reps and including the eccentric phase

[Joshua Naterman]

I see, thanks for the clarification.

I read all that you wrote carefully, but since I don't really know about gymnastics and some of the words and terminologies it has, I have to ask: are maximal isometrics x exercises, and submaximal isometrics different exercises? Or is the only difference is that submaximal you hold them half the time and maximal as much as you can, but they remain the same exercise?

As an aside, will PPP help you with the planche progressions? I can't do the frog stand like the boy in the article here so I really hate doing it, and I would prefer to do the advanced frog stand instead of the regular one (is this the advanced frog stand? http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=EOdIsHxW7Kc) but I can't do it either, so that's why it's not much of an incentive for me to keep doing it.

Maximal and submaximal are just vague references to different intensity levels. You have to try and remember that our body has 3 main energy cycles that it uses, and that there are groups of muscle fiber sub-types that function primarily using only one of those energy systems. That is an over-simplified statement, but it's good enough for non-academia. Your highest output fibers use the ATP/CP system. It lasts up to 20 seconds, and the energy turnover is the highest. It is VERY inefficient, which is why it runs out so quickly, but the amount of ATP produced per second (NOT per chemical reaction) is the highest, which is why this energy system produces the most power. These are your maximal strength fibers.

Next on the list is the Amaerobic Glycolysis energy system.That means using glycogen (stored sugar) for energy without oxygen. This is more efficient, about 4x more efficient, than the ATP/CP system. Interestingly, it also provides energy for 3-4x the time, meaning 60-80s, before it fails to maintain the balance between maximal output for this system, available local energy, and the clearing of 'waste' products from the muscle. Eventually, there's so much waste product that the materials used for energy can't be 'burned' fast enough to keep up with the energy demand of the exercise, which is when you poop out and have to take a long rest. These fibers are your strength/endurance fibers. They can still be very, very strong, but not even close to what the maximal strength fibers are capable of.

Finally we have the Aerobic Respiration system. There are a few different sub-categories here for burning fat and burning sugar for energy, but that's irrelevant for this discussion. This system is by FAR the most efficient, producing 32 units of ATP for each chemical reaction, instead of 8 or 2. These reactions are quite a bit slower, so we get the least energy per second from this system, which is why the fibers that use it are the Aerobic Endurance fibers, also known as type 1 fibers.

The body can mix the use of these energy systems to meet the requirements of whatever it is doing, which is why there is a RANGE of set/rep/time under tension schemes that can target 2 energy systems at a time. It is also key to understanding the difference between maximal and submaximal isometrics, or any other category of exercise. I didn't just write this because I have too much time on my hands lol!

Maximal isometrics will push an energy system to it's absolute 1-set limit. Anaerobic-1 sets, which are maximal strength sets, will never last more than 20s. If they do you have gotten so strong that it is mostly your Anaerobic-2 fibers, the ones that burn sugar, that can now handle the load, and it's time to add resistance if you intend to still specifically target the maximal strength fibers.

Maximal An-2 sets will last anywhere from 45-80s, though closer to 60s is generally the norm. This pushes your strength-endurance to its absolute 1 set limit.

SUBMAXIMAL work is where this may get tricky to understand. If you use the exact same load that you can hold for a maximum of 60s, which makes it An-2 in nature, but only hold it for 30s then that is clearly not your max hold. Instead, it is SUB-maximal.

The same goes for An-1. If you can hold a weight perfectly still for 15s but only hold for 10s, or 8s, or 12s, those are ALL sub-maximal, meaning less than the maximum time that energy system can support the load.

You can do maximal and submaximal work in the exact same position(and/or with the exact same load), for the targeted energy system. For example, tuck planche could be sub-maximal if you hold it for 6 seconds, but maximal if you hold it for 11 seconds(the hypothetical max hold in this situation). Try to remember that you are targeting specific energy systems and THROUGH THEM specific muscle fibers! You can decide, based on the demands of your sport, where to focus most of your time.

As for PPP, they help build muscular strength in the planche positions but won't contribute much to the tendon conditioning. So yes, you should absolutely do them, but know that they won't condition your biceps tendon any faster. That's why it's important to work steady state, especially once you hit advanced frog.

With regard to your frogstand issues, that attitude would keep a person from accomplishing anything anywhere. These things, like everything else, take time and at the beginning you may literally fall on your face quite often. It WILL pass, but you must stick with it to get past that embarrassing beginning. You will find that almost every successful businessperson, athlete, teacher, or any other trade/profession can relate to this and share a personal story of their own humble beginning.

Do not even TRY advanced frog until you get a 60s frogstand. One thing that can help you a lot are planche leans. Check my youtube channel for the video.

[Joshua Naterman]

Slizzardman, is it possible to work isometrics at various degrees for increased performance on the full ROM? For example, for pullups, an isometric hold with the elbow at a 130 degree angle, then 90, then at the top?

Similarly, I know an exercise called "frenchies" in which you hold a pull up at the bottom, middle, and top, but done for multiple reps and including the eccentric phase

Yes, you can absolutely use different isometric holds to increase full ROM performance. I'd recommend top, middle, and just before dead hang, with the scapulae retracted.

Frenchies aren't terrible, but they'll require a lot more recovery. I wouldn't recommend them very often but one frenchie a week won't hurt. Doing multiple reps of that just shows a lack of understanding on how to optimally condition the nervous system, but unless you're going for the world title or something you should do what you like!