Elbow Pain: near tricep/elbow attachment-probably from BL

[Gregoriah]

Hola guys.

Been working on the GB stuff since the beginning of the summer, and enjoying it much. However, in my second steady-state cycle I began experiencing some elbow pain, so I haven't finished that cycle (let alone progressed beyond it). My main athletic activity is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu-unfortunately for me, in my 9 years of training, I have had a few hyperextensions of each elbow, so they are probably a bit more fragile than average to begin with.

For my second GB SS cycle, I moved from Frog Stands to Advanced Frog Stands (8 sets of 8 second holds), and moved up to working a 24 sec tucked back lever hold (X 3 sets). These two exercises seem the likely candidates for what is causing the elbow pain. I am also doing ring supports, pullups, ring dips, and tuck front levers. I only recently realized that the BL should be trained palms down from the beginning, and I think my elbow pain was probably caused by the first (only) time I tried to do a skin-the-cat to tuck BL with palms down-I lowered into it, felt immediate pain in my left elbow and sort of felt a 'crunch'. I let go, and went back to training with palms up. The pain is on the 'back/outside' of the elbow, and I feel it during extension, rather than flexion of my arm. The pain is occurring near where my tricep meets my elbow joint.

I took last week off to let my elbow heal, and things feel much better. I would like to resume training soon-possibly this week, and certainly by next week. My first step towards training again will be to cut the volume of every exercise I did in half for the first 1-2 weeks, and work back up to what I had programmed over the course of 2-5 weeks.

So. Long setup, but here are my two questions.

1. If I can't currently perform a palms-down tuck back lever, what is the first exercise in the progression that leads to a palms down tuck BL? Basically, I want to know what exercise I should be doing in place of back levers, for now.

2. Are there any good prehab exercises I can do to build strength in the muscle and tissues in and around the elbow? I'm open to any ideas for elbow prehab, but I'm specifically interested in exercises that will prevent further pain where I am currently having it-near where the tricep meets the elbow joint, on the 'backside/outside' of the elbow.

This was a long question, so I appreciate input from anyone who was willing to slog through the whole thing. Thanks in advance!

Greg

[Rafael David]

Slizz and other members can better respond, but I think it's this:

1. German hang.

2. heavy biceps curls (3-5 reps)

8)

[Joshua Naterman]

First off, you're right: hard armbars can definitely leave you with less than ideal elbows, but never fear! You can fix them and make them better than ever!

Now, we need some background info to really get a decent idea of what's going on with you. Are you following the WODs? Are you practicing all 6 FSP? If not, which ones ARE you practicing, and how is it structured? How many times per week, sets, reps, position, etc.

I think you're trying a bit too hard on the advanced frog. You may be going by the progression advice in The Book, but it's incomplete. From frog to advanced tuck you need a 60s straight solid hold in the position before advancing. THe 15 second rule only applies to straddle planche. When you've got a 15s straddle, THEN you can play with full lay or half lay. THis applies to back lever AND front lever as well. For Manna, L sit and Straddle L, the first 3 progressions should be to 60s as well, and 30 afterwards. So you'd need a 60s low MSH to try horizontal MSH, and a 30s horizontal MSH to try lifting into Manna. 60s L sit before trying advanced L, 60s low straddle L before trying horizontal straddle L.

Also, you should do what I did, since I am recovering from messed up elbows as well. I'll have that process at the end of this post. I've recovered from worse than what you have, so don't worry! You'll be better than ever by the end of the year, and doing just fine in a few months.

The info I've asked for will help me and the others get a much better idea of what's going on in your body. Just FYI, it sounds like a tendon just got out of the groove, and that will probably be completely cleared up in a week or two. I could be wrong, but the crunching sound is not something I've never heard before, and when it happens to me it's something being off track. The best thing you can do is to give your arms a good 4-7 days of complete rest. It sounds like you've done that, and are being smart about listening to your body. When you feel like it's time, start on the program below.

I think I'll make a video for this, so look for it to be here in the next few days. I have a bunch I need to edit and upload to youtube, and this is an important one I think.

It doesn't sound like your biceps tendons are the problem, it sounds like a strength imbalance. However, to help you build up your advanced frog faster there are two things you should do:

1) Easy planche leans

2) semi-advanced frog stand.

When I started training planche again after my layoff, my elbows were in bad shape. For me, it was the biceps tendons. Since you're doing 8x8s adv frog, I'm pretty sure your tendons aren't much further along than mine were at the time, so I suggest that you do this even though they are not CURRENTLY giving you trouble. This will help you build up your tendons.

First, do a 60s planche lean with perfect form. Don't build up to this, just put your hands as close to your shoulders as they have to be to do a comfortable and somewhat tiring 60s set. That should be part of your warm up. This is the first step in conditioning your biceps tendon. Trying to jump into an advanced frogstand at adult weight is just asking an awful lot from your tendons, especially abused tendons like yours, so ease them into it by starting with the planche leans. Treat these like any other FSP: Steady state. Get your heels against the wall and mark the floor with tape or a marker or something, so you can put your hands in the same place every time. Every 4-8 weeks you're going to feel like the position you're in is too easy. Move back a bit, but make sure you can ALWAYS do 60s with no biceps tendon discomfort. That's the limiting factor for how far you should move back.

After that, for your FSP do your frog stand with straighter arms. Not completely straight, just around a 30 degree bend. This should not be a problem for you, and you should be able to do longer sets. For your steady state cycle, you'll straighten your arms a bit more while maintaining the same hold time once you've built up to 3x20s holds. You'll find that comes fairly quickly. After that, you'll be straightening your arms more and more every 8-16 weeks, and it will probably take 2 cycles to be doing your advanced frog perfectly for 3x20, and you'll have a 60s hold in 1-2 cycles after that.

Next up: German Hangs!!!

You should be careful with these at first, and maybe wait a few weeks before throwing these in. At first, do these on something where your feet can touch the ground so that you can spot yourself. The right way to do these is kind of weird, because these are a stretch, not a hold. You want to try and push your knuckles to the ceiling and try to push your butt to the floor, and stick your chest at the far wall. Obviously none of these things will actually happen, but you want to ACTIVELY open the body as much as possible. Stretch reflexes will take care of the muscle contractions, you won't even have to try. At first, you will probably have to spot yourself with your feet, and that's ok. Try to spot by reducing your weight while still extending into the stretch. IT won't take too long, maybe 2 months, before you're able to do these free-hanging. Until you can easily hold 3x30s german hangs, don't even START on back lever. What this does is stretch the biceps and strengthen the biceps, anterior deltoids, and pecs in the stretched position. When you reach that landmark they will be used to working fairly hard while being stretched, and you shouldn't have much trouble starting with tuck BL. Remember, until you have a 60s advanced tuck don't try straddle.

One more thing: Just as we are gradually building up to the advanced frog from the frog, you should transition from inverted hangs to BL. Just go part of the way down and hold. Every few weeks keep the same hold time but go lower! You will be in proper tuck BL pretty soon, and from there follow steady state.

That's the specific straight arm "From the Ground Up" strength and rehab guide!

I would HIGHLY suggest that you follow the WODs consistently, 4x per week. They will make you a MUCH better grappler AND they will make sure your strength and flexibility becomes and stays balanced. They will also increase your maximal strength, explosive and reactive power, AND muscular endurance from your head to your toes. Literally your entire body. The WODs are a complex training cycle, and that is something that professional athletes pay pretty big bucks for good trainers to make for them, and we're getting it for free here. Complex training means that you train multiple athletic attributes in the same cycle. I have felt much better since I have started and stuck with the WODs, I am not suggesting you do anything but the best, I just don't believe in spending time doing anything else.

I know that most jiu jitsu classes have you do a bunch of calisthenics, but they're low level and just for warm up, and they are pretty much all pushing, there is usually very little pulling and it's almost always very repetitive. You won't find anything that trains you to be a more capable athlete, especially for grappling, than the WODs here.

If for some reason you don't follow the WODs, at least make sure your pushing and pulling work gets balanced, and keep it that way. You will also find that adding 1-2 sets of tricep pushups will help condition your tricep tendons.

[Blairbob]

developing a strong ring support as well as the german hang is necessary before the back lever.

for those people with hyperflexion in their elbows, they are going to feel more tension on their elbows than it just being a hang. Even when doing a german hang like stretch while seated on floor (shoulder extension) they will feel pressure on the elbows.

When you felt that crunch of your elbow in the BL was it similar to popping the elbow or a joint?

[Gregoriah]

! Holy crap slizzardman! That's an essay, and I really appreciate the effort you put into typing that up for me. I'm going to try and reply to everything you asked, so this could get a bit long.

My current routine-I was doing all the FSP's EXCEPT Manna and the Straddle L. This is what I was doing most recently. If you want me to list what I did for my first cycle, I'll happily put that in another post. But in the interest of time and length, I'm going to skip it for now.

On days 1&3 (M&W) I did the following:

A1. 8 sets of Advanced Frog Stand, 8 second holds.

A2. 8 sets of Low L-sits, 8 second holds.

A3a. 4 sets of Tuck Front lever, 17 sec holds

A3b. 4 sets Pistols, 1-2-2-1 reps. Slow descent, hold for 5 sec. at bottom, slow ascent.

B1. 5 sets of Pullups, 3 reps

B2. 5 sets of Dips, 1 rep.

C1. 3 sets of Tuck Back Lever, 24 sec holds.

C2. 3 sets of Handstand (belly-to-wall), 24 sec holds.

The A1-A2-A3a/b thing worked like this: The first 4 sets of the cycle went A1-A2-A3a, then the last 4 went A1-A2-A3b. Does that make sense?

My workout on days 2&4 (Tues & Fri) followed the same template with just a few substitutions: A3b) Box jumps-4sets of 3-instead of Pistols; B1) False grip hang from the body row position-5 holds of 10 seconds; B2) Ring support, wrists facing my legs-5 holds of 10 seconds; C2) Handstands, but back to the wall this time-same sets/reps as Mon-Wed. Does that make sense? I just listed the ways Tues/Fri was different rather than paste the whole workout in.

As for Frog Stand-I can complete a 60s hold in the basic frog stand position. In my last cycle, I was doing 4 sets of 15second holds; the first time I tested my max holds, I was able to knock out a 30 second frog stand. After my first cycle, I retested the frog stand, and hit 62 seconds. So it may be that I could benefit from slowing down a bit, but my frog stand (the basic version at least) feels relatively solid. I'll look forward to watching your video, and I'll plan on following your program.

I think I am going to go ahead and take a second week away from strength work. My arm feels much better, but still just a hair's breadth away from feeling good, and there's no sense pushing it. In the meantime, plenty of cardio and jiu-jitsu.

As for the WOD's, I'd definitely like to follow them in the future. But I felt that for now, it would be beneficial to build some base of strength-particularly in the FSP's-before jumping into the WOD's. Is that wrong-headed? Should I just start the WOD's now? I just want to make sure that I do a good job developing strength for the FSP's, muscle-ups, and the like. Also important, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd feel modifying the WOD's (and oh boy, would I need to modify them).

So....lotta stuff there. Take your time getting back to me. I really do appreciate the help.

[Joshua Naterman]

I thought the same as far as the WODs and basic strength go, but you'll do better to get on the WODs. They are much more balanced and if you can't do the easiest version of the multiplane stuff or combined push pull, just do the separate exercises. If you can't do a chest roll do a PPP and a HeSPU, head elevated if you need to. We can help with the substitutions on the rare occasions you can't find something in the book! The WODs are what Coach's kids start with on Day 1, scaled back as far as they have to, just like we do, so there's no benefit to starting later and more than a few reasons to NOT start later. You should be scaling the WODs, so worrying about strength is unnecessary.

Great work with the frogstand! My guess is that the Advanced frog feels a lot different, which it should lol! By easing into it like I said, it's easier to get used to. It took me 3-4 months to go from a 30 degree arm bend, which was as far as I could go without starting to cause pain, to perfectly straight arms for 20s sets. It worked wonderfully and painlessly for me, and I think it will for you too. I can press into advanced tuck planche now with straight arms, though I won't be training that directly for at least a year, I would guess. After my experiences, and seeing how much strength improves with the WODs, I'm just using the statics for tendon development. The strength comes from the WODs, so you have to be careful not to get ahead of yourself!

You did pretty good with your programming! Don't worry about modifying the WODs, there are getting to be quite a few of us posting our WODs every day so you can see we all scale them as well lol! You may even get some great ideas on how to scale. You will also have lots of fun doing everything! I think it is very smart of you to start working the false grip hands, that will help a lot down the line.

Once you start back, work your way up to doing your statics as warm up for each workout, and do all 6 FSP. I have a video called My FSP Warm up, or something like that, on my youtube account that will show you how MY warm up looks, and how I pair the statics to save time. You should play with the pairing if you think there's something that will work better for you, but don't neglect the Manna work I do. I do the reverse push up. What you will see has a pretty severe arm angle, so don't think you have to start there. At first, start with your hands under your shoulders and concentrate on pushing your hands into the floor, squeezing your shoulder blades a bit, and pressing your chest towards the ceiling while arching your back with straight legs. It's weird, but that's the first step in Manna. There is no other exercise that works the shoulder girdle in this direction, and this really goes a long way towards balancing the shoulder girdle. There have been some recent "aha!" moments with Coach and his athletes that have reminded him just how important that Manna work is, and he explained that to us at the last Seminar.

[Joshua Naterman]

vaH_HUMooyM

This is just for the biceps tendon, it's not a complete answer, but this will keep you from getting hurt.

[Gregoriah]

Just watched the elbow pre-hab vid and the FSP warm-up vid. Good stuff, that was helpful. I'm going to take this week off. After that, I am going to start with a workout that is JUST the elbow-prehab routine+an FSP warmup. I'll do that for 2-4 weeks, and once I'm convinced that my elbows are feeling good and my FSP's solid, I'm going to add the WOD's. I think I'm going to follow the WOD's one week behind where everybody else is doing them. This should allow me plenty of time to figure out how to scale or modify them for my equipment collection and strength level.

I messed around yesterday with doing the advanced frog stand with my arms slightly bent and it felt awesome. I think I might be able to get away with jumping to the straight arm version; still, coming off an inury I don't see any reason to risk it. I'm going to do at least 4-6 weeks where my advanced frog stand has a slight bend in my arms, and go from there.

I had a few questions about how you are programming the FSP warmup. I gather that since this is a warmup, we aren't trying to work to our full capacity; we want to 'save ourselves' for the WOD, right? So are you decreasing intensity by working on an easier exercise in the progression, by decreasing volume, or some combination of both? IIE, in my current workout, I am doing 4 sets 17 second tuck front levers. I can't go to an easier exercise, so I should cut volume-what's preferable, 2 sets of 17 second holds or 4 sets of 9-10 seconds? Is it preferable to just do 1/2 the 60 second volume that coach prescribes when doing the FSP's as an exercise? I love the idea of working the FSP's as warm-up and prehab, but I'd love a little more guidance on how we should choose the correct level of exertion, what exercise in the progression to choose, and for what volume of work.

Again, many many thanks for all your help with this. On a completely unrelated note, I was in ATL for a wedding a few weeks ago, and some friends took us to Brick Store, the Iberian Pig and Leon's in Decatur. Fun spots.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice! Decatur has a great downtown area!

I think 3 17s sets is good for now. I wouldn't go beyond 4 sets of anything, but if you're over 45s with the three sets then you should be fine there. It's working great for me. In time 2 sets of 30s will be pretty easy.

The thing about the FSP is that they are really, really basic. You should never be struggling with them. It's funny and humbling to see Coach's athletes just do the MSH with their hips like a foot in front of their hands, or a straight straddle L like it's nothing, and that's how you're supposed to practice. If you work hard on the FSP, you will be severely limiting what you can do in the WODs and that will slow EVERYTHING down because it's being done backwards. The WODs are where the muscular strength and endurance come from, and the statics are where the endurance is important, tendons are conditioned, and proper body position is learned. All of that takes a while, but it comes.

[Joshua Naterman]

Remember that warm ups aren't nothing, but they aren't as hard as the workouts either. The FSP warm up is the beginning part. Ideally you would do 1-3 sets of much, much easier variations of the WOD work sets as the second part of your warm up.