Pike and straddle stretch. Pain in lower back

[Leandro]

I had a sharp pain in the lower back while stretching straddle (pancake).

Am I suposed to keep a flat back when I stretch these?? Or I need to curl??

[Cole Dano]

Sharp pain? Are there any symptoms now, or did the pain stop right away?

How were you doing the stretch when the pain occurred?'

Can you describe more exactly where the pain was? Lumbar, sacrum, center, right or left side...?

Without this kind of detailed explanation, its almost unethical to even attempt to answer your question. In general, the more you put into framing the question the more helpful response you can get.

[Leandro]

I was on the ground with legs opened stretching straddle. The pain was in the lumbar, not in the center, but a little to the right side. It was sharp and fast. Then it passed away, because I was warm, but a few hours later I was kinda darth vader lol. Now that I already slept and woke, it's a lot better, but there's still something I can feel...

Maybe I was curling too much??

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, this is a hard one for me too. I didn't want to reply until someone more knowledgable did. I keep my back flat for most of my time in these stretches, because the primary goal is to stretch the hamstrings to the point where they will let your pelvis roll WAAAAY forward, eliminating the need for back bending nearly completely. OF course, before then you canbend your back, but if you do that keep in mind that your back will be exposed to much higher forces unless you are very careful to always try and push your belly button towards the space in between your knees. Down AND forward. Just down will become very uncomfortable because you're starting to stretch the ligaments that hold your spine together and that's not good! You may have just felt a small cramp form as a built-in protection to the spine moving too far.

[Leandro]

I still have a small discomfort, but I think it will go away by tomorrow... Next time I stretch I will take care to not curl too much. I alreay noticed it allows you to go further but takes away the focus on the hamstrings.

[Mats Trane]

Flat. Try to look forward or up while leaning forward

[Cole Dano]

Sometimes that kind of pain can last a while, that particular stretch can do it.

Without seeing you i'm always reluctant to say to much. Even today i had a student, great guy, i was teaching him how to have a straight back, he'd swear it was straight and i'd say no, move like this and use my hands to get him in the right place. Then he say how good it felt no pain etc- Ok do it again, same thing, after about 20 minutes i finally got him to find it on his own. I have a feeling i'll be repeating that the next time i see him. So its always tough with the internet, we are always doing perfectly, yet something hurts.... deep flexibility is an art and i suspect as many injuries are caused by it as anything else. Its just so easy to go that last little bit but sometimes that can get you in trouble. A life time of yoga and i can attest to that, as i've had to be my own laboratory. I used to do a lot of really crazy stuff flexibility wise and unfortunately due to the ignorance generally prevalent in the form of yoga i was practicing no one called me on my weaknesses. I knew i was doing lots of deep stuff, but also that i needed some outside guidance. I surpassed what everyone in the country was doing and even their teacher in part due to the shear frustration of how close minded they were. Eventually I quit where i was practicing, went solo and invited my original teachers over here for a week and that's what got this whole ball rolling for me. Finally getting to add the process of understanding to the raw doing, finding the function behind the form, or even what the form was not what i thought it was, what i wanted to believe i was doing. That stripping away all the old habits is what finally led me here, wanting to get a functional base of strength to layer the yoga over.

Well thats a long aside its late and been a brutal day.

One funny thing about forward bends in general and straddle in particular is that at a certain point the spine should round. Its a long round but round. Yes i've know of people who have over done the flattening and it can start to cause problems in the lumbar or more often the sacrum. You can tell you are over doing it if it feels like you can stick your hand between the elastic of your shorts and low back.

Of course for men this is rare, but it does happen. The general rule is that if you feel your spine in a forward bend you shouldn't feel the bones sticking out. Its a simple rule that works in all cases. Ideally the feeling of the groove of the spine would stay even through the whole spine from top to bottom.

In a deep forward bend this is possible with a slightly rounded spine which is actually considered to be correct form. However this is only true once the forward bend is such that the hips are hitting the legs (pike) or at leg level (straddle) Its not good to tilt the hip past that in straddle and lie on your belly as it will cause distortion in the hips and can loosen the sacrum.

[Leandro]

Wow thanks for all the info!

It's good that today is rest day, I hope tomorrow I'm 100%. I will try to correct my form on the next stretches!

[Leandro]

Just to give some feedback, the pain is no more, thank god. It's not that easy to take Leandro down! lol

I stretched today, taking a good care in form. There's no point really in curling too much. I went 45º, around my max rom at the moment, with a flat back, and the stretch was very effective. I was trying before to touch the forehead in the ground. Never again!

[Cole Dano]

Excellent news!

If 45 deg is you max with a flat back then that explains the pain. That what i was hoping to find out.

Work there and for a little while exaggerate the arch in your lower back in a way that feels good, it often helps that particular pain.

[Leandro]

Alright, thanks!

[Leandro]

I'm reviving this topic to some updates.

I went to a doctor to investigate this. X ray says I have osteoarthrosis, lumbar facet syndrome on L5-S1 (the best english translation I found).

The thing is, the stuff I read on internet about this injury is not what I feel. Doctor says I have a postural problem, stomach projected and pulls lower back. Ok. I have a discomfort here and there, when I walk too much, sometimes when I wake up, thats what I'm guessing this arthrosis is.

BUT, the pain I mentioned when I opened this topic is very specific and different. I had it today again. Its always when I'm stretching straddle, on the ground, and when I reach almost my max rom it may or not appear. I didnt curl the lower back today and it happened again. When this happens, a sharp and instant pain comes in the lower back, and it stays sore and stiff for days, depending on how hard the pain was. It happened too exactly like this once in the past, during leg press.

Is this the arthrosis thing? It seems I have something else. I also go to a chiropractor who says I have nothing on the bones themselves and he couldnt identify any problem at all on me. I read on the internet that facet syndrome gives pain when you hiperextend lower back and gets better when you flex it. But what happens to me is the oposite right? I can do bridge wall walks TO THE GROUND and the only thing I feel is strong stress on lower back, but absolutely no sharp pain. Nothing like this terrible pain that sometimes happen when I stretch.

What the hell is this?? What should I do?

[Joshua Naterman]

The bridge wall walk is flexing the lower back. Pike and straddle stretches tend to extend the lower back because people round their backs instead of flexing them as when in a bridge so that the back stays straight.

That sacral area is tough to diagnose.

[braindx]

The bridge wall walk is flexing the lower back. Pike and straddle stretches tend to extend the lower back because people round their backs instead of flexing them as when in a bridge so that the back stays straight.

That sacral area is tough to diagnose.

Uh what?

You got that backwards.

Rounding back as in these stretches = flexion

Arching back as in bridges = extension

-------------------

Lenadro:

It sounds like you may have a bulging or herniated disc from the stiffness and such. Pretty sharp pain going into flexion with the soreness and stiffness that may accompany the acute inflammation presented from inflammation/impingement of the lumbar nerves (usually dura) in the area.

I'd see a physical therapist if at all possible.

Discs don't really show up on X-ray so that's probably why the doc missed it.

[Cole Dano]

Leandro, sorry to hear about all this. You are unfortunately stepping into the vast morass of low back pain. If it were actually possible to solve your problem here online, i would have no more financial worries! The truth is we don't fully understand how it all works. There are many cases of people with herniated disks who have no pain, and those who seem absolutely perfect to have pain.

What the leaders in the field are finding is that in some cases we have over rated the role of posture, and that quality of movement is a key factor.

In your case, since you know that a certain movement is causing you a great deal of pain. The best thing you can do is to work on that movement. Of course if you have some sort of movement Coach it helps, but only if they are good, otherwise it can cause more confusion.

Try to sit in the position and without forcing the range of motion feel what's going on, and look for the point where the movement goes from being good to something else. In particular when there is pain, you will know.

Play with different ways of moving in that position, how you hold your legs, tense your back or abs etc. again always reminding yourself NOT to go past the point of good movement.

If you aren't sure where this is then play it safe, go short on purpose and give yourself time to define where the limit is.

Also try other movements, in fact for low back issues, walking is almost always a great way to explore movement, its slow, it doesn't require too much attention to your external surroundings, unless you are crossing a street.

Anytime i go in for a treatment i make it a point to walk home for just this reason. We become habituated to how we move and often don't realize the possibilities we have. There are dozens of different ways a person can walk.

The final related point, with this issue, getting some movement in the affected area that is the only path nutrients have for getting there, there is no blood flow, so gentle movement is vital, again walking done mindfully, not rigidly is one way to provide this movement.

Best to you, keep the updates coming.

[Leandro]

Rounding back as in these stretches = flexion

Arching back as in bridges = extension

That's what I thought! And thats what makes it weird since my sharp pain is when flexing the back too much, not when extending it. I hope it's not herniated disk but I will have to investigate more I guess.

Leandro, sorry to hear about all this. You are unfortunately stepping into the vast morass of low back pain. If it were actually possible to solve your problem here online, i would have no more financial worries! The truth is we don't fully understand how it all works. There are many cases of people with herniated disks who have no pain, and those who seem absolutely perfect to have pain.

Thank you for these words. You know, I was thinking when I left the consult, why the hell a doctor simply can't tell me he doesn't know YET what I have. No. It seems that for him I'm not me, I'm a X ray he's seeing. If it's not showing there, then it doesn't exist.

In your case, since you know that a certain movement is causing you a great deal of pain. The best thing you can do is to work on that movement. Of course if you have some sort of movement Coach it helps, but only if they are good, otherwise it can cause more confusion.

Try to sit in the position and without forcing the range of motion feel what's going on, and look for the point where the movement goes from being good to something else. In particular when there is pain, you will know.

Play with different ways of moving in that position, how you hold your legs, tense your back or abs etc. again always reminding yourself NOT to go past the point of good movement.

Ok. The safest way to round the back for me, at least what I think it is, is to squat to the ground, with all the feet on the ground, while holding into something, like stall bars. That also can't be overdone. When I do that usually I feel better.

Talking about walking, 3 days ago, before the pain appeared again, I walked 1 hour. The only thing I feel is sometimes some discomfort, but it's a different feeling, it's not that same pain, but less. It's some kind of stiffness in the lower back.

But just one crucial question. Considering I also have a sprained ankle, (among other injuries lol) yeah it can be healed but ruptured ligaments will never be the same. Considering that, I think I shouldn't do any kind of tumbling at all right? That means abandon gymnastic class training, and maybe only stick with BtGB. Or maybe not?

[Cole Dano]

Leandro never say never!

I like the idea of using stall bars or the like to do squatting, i use this all the time with my back people.

If you have some issues from an old ankle injury it can very easily contribute to your problem! There are all kinds of compensations we have to make when one joint isn't working right.

Of course i don't know how bad the sprain was, but with consistent work its amazing how much restoration is possible. Get to work on your ankle mobility!

Of course for the time being you have to be smart, just don't fall into the trap that you can't improve things, or else you never will.

Its about being proactive, consistent and patient.

[Leandro]

It was bad. Exactly 1 year ago. Complete rupture of 2 ligaments and if I can remember there was some damage in the talus. But now the doc thinks the cartilage is not completely healed and I'm taking a medicament for it. It bothers me just sometimes but it may probably be affecting the lower back, yes.

I guess I have to build things brick by brick, slowly, from a step lower.

[braindx]

If your diet is not in tip top shape that would be a good place to start if you're having some chronic problems with the ankle (eliminating all processed foods, sugars, gluten, etc).

Depending on where you are with the healing phase there's a bunch of good exercises listed on page 4 here for the feet/ankles for proprioception/kinesthesia and strengthening. Foot drills are particularly good for strengthening/awareness.

http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2009/11/s ... functions/

Like said before though do as much exercise/movement with the low back as you can without aggravating it. Moving helps keep the joints loose, and helps to get blood flow and nutrients to all those injured tissues. Not moving is the worst thing you can do. So lots of movement but non-painful.

[Leandro]

Thanks a lot!!

I just found now your other article on fundamentals of bodyweight strenght too. There's ton of info on these two for me to digest. I will love to read all of it, but I have to do it later, that's my homework for the weekend!

[Joshua Naterman]

The bridge wall walk is flexing the lower back. Pike and straddle stretches tend to extend the lower back because people round their backs instead of flexing them as when in a bridge so that the back stays straight.

That sacral area is tough to diagnose.

Uh what?

You got that backwards.

Rounding back as in these stretches = flexion

Arching back as in bridges = extension

-------------------

Lenadro:

It sounds like you may have a bulging or herniated disc from the stiffness and such. Pretty sharp pain going into flexion with the soreness and stiffness that may accompany the acute inflammation presented from inflammation/impingement of the lumbar nerves (usually dura) in the area.

I'd see a physical therapist if at all possible.

Discs don't really show up on X-ray so that's probably why the doc missed it.

Argh. Thanks!

I hate it when that happens. :oops: :oops: :oops:

People don't seem to realize that the lumbar spine is not meant to flex more than like 20-30 degrees, and when you do more than that you can cause the multifidus to spasm, which may be what Leandro is feeling.

Definitely see a professional. A herniated disk by itself isn't that big of a deal (relatively speaking), it is the inflammation in the area that will cause problems. There are tons of people with herniated discs that go through their lives and a good bit of training without any trouble, and the key is controlling the inflammation and learning to move the lower back correctly so that you aren't aggravating an already vulnerable area.

You may want to also seriously consider either getting "A Tooth from the Tiger's Mouth" or seeing a real chinese medicine specialist for topical treatments on the inflamed area. I am using chinese medicated plasters for my shoulder and it's working wonders. Inflammation is going away far faster than it was.

If you want I'll post the link to the site I ordered my plasters from. They are mega cheap and very effective.

Edit: You may need to limit your tumbling to some basic stuff like back flips and front flips, but chances are pretty good that you should be ok. I believe that the ruptured ligaments can be re-attached if you want them to be, and if you have that done make sure you have some rounds of either plasma-enriched prolotherapy or growth hormone prolotherapy directly on the sites they work on so that they actually heal properly. Ligaments take forever on their own and often never heal quite right after complete ruptures like you describe.

If you can get to a seminar Coach's joint prep will really help, but in the meantime the basic alphabet exercises with a small ankle weight strapped around the instep or ball of the foot can help a lot. There is band stuff too that you can do, jumpstretch has some great ankle band exercises to keep you strong and help you recover from that sprain!

[Leandro]

Thanks Slizzardman! I would reeeaaaly love to go to a seminar, but I live in Brazil, and it's impossible... In this matter I will have to wait for liquid steel™. I will get it as soon as it's out.

The ankle itself doesn't concern me much, because the doc said the ligaments healed quite good, and since I did physiotherapy for months I know what I have to do for it. I'm just being lazy about it lately.

As for the lower back, chinese medicine you mean acupunture? I go to a chiropractor, but I think acupunture would help also. But first I need to know if I really have a herniated disc right? This arthrosis facet syndrome.....I don't know. I will go to a new doc, look for acupunture, and go again to my chiro.

[Joshua Naterman]

Doctors have lots of names for things, and quite honestly it is very easy to mis-diagnose things in the back. By chinese medicine I mean topical herbal treatments, but accupuncture from a good practitioner can be quite amazing. There's an old Chinese guy that people drive from all over the East Coast to see somewher eup in North Carolina. He got shut down because there were too many people clogging up the neighborhood lol! I know at least 10 people who have personally been treated by him and after 2-3 treatments their allergies were gone permanently to this day, like 7 years later. Go figure. I don't even pretend to understand that completely. If the person isn't really, really good then you might have no real effect at all. That's why it's worth taking the time to go to someone that people are willing to make overnight trips to see.

[Leandro]

Too bad I don't know anyone who used acupunture to have some feedback. All I can think is to look on internet, and that won't asure me a good professional..

I did a full lower body and core stretch yesterday. Paying more attention to my lower back. The pain actually goes increasing as I stretch. Not in a single stretch but in the stretch session. Here are some things I noticed:

1) The pain is a little to the right side of the spine at the end of the lower back.

2) It's a lot more noticeable if I'm stretching with the right leg extended only than if I'm with the left. If it's in a pike position it's a lot less noticeable than in straddle. I don't necessarily need to curl to feel it, but it gets worse.

3) It gives pain on the knee as well. This is weird. A pain or discomfort behind the knee, as if something is being stick with a needle. In the worse episodes, this pain also comes from all behind the leg.

4) I can't tell if it's muscular or not. I can tell that as I go stretching more and more, like the third set of a straddle stretch, the pain increases, and this leaves my lower back stiff and sore after, when I cool down.

5) After the pain is "installed" some movements that previously didn't have any trouble at all give me pain. Classic example is HLL. I can easly do 10 HLL (to L, above horizontal) when without pain. With pain it's hard to do even 1.

6) Now this is intresting. Stretching the oposite, bridge or even with somatch on the floor actually lessens the pain. This is completely contradictory to the simptoms of that arthrosis facet syndrome that xray shows. If I have that, that's probably not bugging me, but definetly I have something else.

[Cole Dano]

Symptoms sound more like sciatic nerve to me. One thing is for sure, don't do those pike stretches for the time being, they are only causing aggravation.