OAP & OAC discussion

[Kiyoshi]

I have a question about the OAP (One arm pushup) and about the OAC (One arm chinup).

First for the OAP, would training it like a static position be most effective? As well as doing assisted one arm pushups (such as grabbing an object and using 80% of one arm to press. I mean real OAP, not the feet spread.

What kind of skills does the strength gained from a full ROM OAP lend too? And is the OAP comparable to any weightlifiting exercise or strength?

For the OAC, I have been practicing for it recently. I can do 15 good pullups, which is said to be a pre-requisite. So I'm doing specialized training now for the OAC. I'm following a video, of a guy who says he could do a OAC after only 2 months of training. Heres his video,

anyway so I wanted to know if anyone else is training for this as well. And if this is the best method?

Also thought this thread could be used in general for OAP & OAC discussions.

Thanks

[gymgreg]

Looking back into my log, here is what i did to get an OAC.

Here is where i started before i began to specifically train for an OAC:

I was able to do isometric holds for every arm-angle and weighted pullups for up to 10-15 reps @20kg-15kg.

Then in addition to my other workouts i mixed in a pull-up session in the morning every second day (no matter what).

Here is the template i used (credits to Ross Enamait's "Never gymless"):

MO: weighted chin/pull-ups
WE: two-arm chin/pull-ups (high rep)
FR: One-arm chin-up progressions
SU: weighted chin/pull-ups

TU: One-arm chin-up progressions
TH: WE: two-arm chin/pull-ups (high rep)
SA: One-arm chin-up progressions

MO: Start back at the beginning

weighted days: ~25-35 reps overall, maybe in ladders up to a certain weight (and back down), or sets of 5x3 + 2x8 , 3x5 +3x5, or just using a fixed weight and do variations or weighted rope climbs. Steadily increase weight to keep it in the 3-6 rep range. Note that weighted does not mean maximal!

high rep days: ~80 reps overall, sometimes more, all kinds of hand/grip positions and set sizes, dynamic pulls, sometimes i limited rest to 30-60 sec, or did (max reps -3) 90 sec rest (max reps -3) 90 sec rest (max reps -3) rest 5 minutes. repeat 3 times

one -arm progressions days:

Usually started with assisted OAC (one hand grabbed a rubber band ) with really slow negative pulls . Those were max efforts. I did one each arm and rested 2-3 min. Did that 3-5 times.

Then i did isometrics. 4 - 6 rounds of 6 isometrics positions per arm held for 5-8 sec (alternating arms each hold).

[Kiyoshi]

Thanks for the information.

Did you do this with your other exercises, 4 times a week?

I dont have any weights I can use , so I gotta do the high reps and OAC progressions only.

How many reps do you suppose is enough to make good progress in one session?

Also I noticed youre doing a human flag, I really need help with that . If you could please let me know how you got to do them, let me know in a similar way you did here it would be much appreciated.

[Joshua Naterman]

You've got to have some kind of a back pack! It's not perfect, but fill your back pack one or two books at a time. If you've got two of them you should easily be able to get 30-40 lbs in there.

You could also buy two sand bags for a few bucks, use duct tape to wrap them and make shoulder straps, and then slowly fill them with dirt as you get stronger. Can't beat that for the money!

If you can't or won't do that, you should still be ok, it may just take longer. When I was on my ship I could do the bottom 2/3 of a OAC and that just came from weighted pull ups. If I had the brains to do OAC prep as well I would have been much better off, but OAC wasn't my goal. I was just screwing around.

I'd like to hear Gymgreg's progression for the flag as well, I just sort of ended up being able to do it so I just go by the side lever progressions in The Book, which is to build the straight body strength and do the oblique work. All I did was body lever work, weighted dead hangs and then I could just bust them out. Not that hard anymore.

[gymgreg]

Did you do this with your other exercises, 4 times a week?

I don't understand your question.

As i stated in my post i did the pull-up workouts in the morning. That allowed me to do my other workouts in the evening.

I usually train everyday (that is everyday a different thing).

I dont have any weights I can use , so I gotta do the high reps and OAC progressions only.

That will not give you the results you want. In my opinion the weighted sessions are essential. You gotta lift some big ass weights.

Just high repping will train endurance, and doing negatives and OAC progressions too often will fatigue your CNS pretty fast (as those are max efforts as i wrote above).

I build myself this dip belt:

How to build it:

y8lWw4w9mQQ

I find it works better than a backpack. And i have done pullups with 50+kg with that belt.

And it was super cheap to make (the duct tape was the most expensive part).

Personally i love just going into the next hardware store and look for possible training equipment. You will be amazed how much stuff you can build on your own.

For example i build some kick ass TRXs for less than 15 bucks or bought 60kg of wood pellets (to fill a duffel bag ) for 16bucks...

You better stop finding excuses and get yourself some weights.

How many reps do you suppose is enough to make good progress in one session?

Please re-read what i wrote.

Also I noticed you're doing a human flag, I really need help with that . If you could please let me know how you got to do them, let me know in a similar way you did here it would be much appreciated.

I followed no special template.

[...] I just sort of ended up being able to do it so I just go by the side lever progressions in The Book, which is to build the straight body strength and do the oblique work.[...]

Yep, that was pretty much the same here.

Side lever negatives a couple of times a week and just the usual constant core training (body levers, planks, v-ups, back extensions etc... the list goes on and on)

To be honest i was surprised that i was suddenly able to hold it for a couple of seconds.

I think that i am now in the same position with the flag that i was in when i started the OAC training.

That is i am able to do short isometrics in every position.

Now comes the challenge to go from jumping into the flag to pulling slowly into it.

I expect this will take at least the same amount of time (if not more) to get there.

EDIT: I realized that slizzardman had just commented while i was typing this up, so i updated this post a couple of times.

[Joshua Naterman]

LOL! That happens to me all the time!!!

Yea, I agree that making that belt is a better option. Even the nicer leather ones are pretty cheap, I can't imagine anyone not being able to afford to at least make the cheap belt.

Also, you can start off with just 10 lbs and buy 10 lbs a month if you want to, weights are $1 per pound at the most. If you get them used they are like 60 cents per lb and if you are REALLY pinching pennies you can buy bags of sand and a 5 gallon bucket and strap that to your homemade or store-bought belt and just pour sand in the bucket. It'll hold at least 50 lbs of sand or 80 lbs of concrete, so while having a 5 gal bucket between your legs might not be ideal it is a good short-term solution in my opinion. I would personally buy the weight plates. All you really need is one 5 lb plate, one 2.5 lb plate and then you can just buy 2 tens. When you can use all that buy a 25 and now you're scaling 2.5 lbs per step all the way to 50 lbs, and that weight should only cost you around 36 dollars.

As greg says, it really does make a big difference.

Edit: You don't need chain as thick as that video. The most comfortable way to do that is to buy some liquid tight nonmetallic conduit, which is very cheap, and then cover it with ipie insulation as shown in the video. I would use spray adhesive or whatever glue you have to help keep the foam in place on the liquid-tight. Then you just run a small chain through! The skinny 400 lb chain at home depot fits perfectly through 3/4" liquidtight with room to spare, so that's how I would go. It's cheap, durable and you don't have to do all that duct-taping.

[Kiyoshi]

Okay so please tell me how this sounds for a good effective (hopefully fast) OAC program:

(Tues, Sat)

Wide grip pullup (2x12)

Wide grip chin up (2x12)

Side to sides (2x10)

Under one arm pull up (3x5) *each side

Weighted Pull-up/chin-up : (4x5) *alternate grips each set

OAC negatives (10) *each side

(Thurs, Sun)

Wide Pullup: 5

Wide Chinup: 5

Weighted Pullup/chinup: 4x5 (alternate grips each set)

1 Arm isolated pullup: 2x10 (each side)

Side to side pullup 10

Frenchie: 3x5

OAC assisted: 10 (each side)(can combine these with negatives, if too difficult)

OAC negatives: 10 (each side)

Also I weigh about 160 , so how much weight should I use to get good results.

[gymgreg]

Your program looks like you completely ignored the tips i gave.

I wonder if i have expressed myself so poorly or if you just don't want to listen.

Tues, Sat)

Wide grip pullup (2x12)

Wide grip chin up (2x12)

Side to sides (2x10)

Under one arm pull up (3x5) *each side

----------------------------------

up to here you have 98 reps

Weighted Pull-up/chin-up : (4x5) *alternate grips each set

OAC negatives (10) *each side

That adds up to 98 pulls BEFORE you want to do the weighted sets. Good luck with that.

You will be too fatigued to get a decent quality weighted pull-up (and i am not even talking about the negative pulls you want to do after that). You are begging for injuries.

There is a reason I told you about the template i used, that is, it works. It splits your sessions into high-rep,weighted and OAC progressions. I also gave you rep range examples for each day.

So basically i laid it all out. Don't mix everything into one session.

[Cole Dano]

Kiyoshi i'm afraid you missed the point, assuming you want to progress and not just do what you like, Greg's program very nicely follows correct strength building principles.

We mix training styles, but each individual workout will have a select emphasis. The body is like a child and does not understand the mixed message it is being given when asked to do high rep dynamic work and strength work in the same session.

Of course you are a free agent but Greg has spent allot of time trying to help you, and even made a video. Please show the proper courtesy, even if you choose to disagree.

If you dig around more on the forum the concept that Greg based his advice on will become clear to you, as well as Greg's own outstanding achievements.

[Aaron Griffin]

It's also worth noting that Greg can do a OAC. The OP cannot. Guess who's advice is going to work better?

[Tarun Suri]

The basic premise is simple. You need to increase your strength. How is doing 98 reps going to affect your system before starting the actual strength part of the training? Your understanding of energy systems in the body is seriously flawed.

I suggest rereading the above posts because you have practically all you need there to get it.

[Kiyoshi]

The basic premise is simple. You need to increase your strength. How is doing 98 reps going to affect your system before starting the actual strength part of the training? Your understanding of energy systems in the body is seriously flawed.

I suggest rereading the above posts because you have practically all you need there to get it.

I dont feel like I get anything from only doing 25 reps or so, I hardly break a sweat doing that. Hows that going to help?

If thats all I need , I will do it. I just get the feeling I could do more

[Kiyoshi]

Kiyoshi i'm afraid you missed the point, assuming you want to progress and not just do what you like, Greg's program very nicely follows correct strength building principles.

We mix training styles, but each individual workout will have a select emphasis. The body is like a child and does not understand the mixed message it is being given when asked to do high rep dynamic work and strength work in the same session.

Of course you are a free agent but Greg has spent allot of time trying to help you, and even made a video. Please show the proper courtesy, even if you choose to disagree.

If you dig around more on the forum the concept that Greg based his advice on will become clear to you, as well as Greg's own outstanding achievements.

I see, I will give it a shot. But I need to change my whole program now.

[Kiyoshi]

Enough. This is childish. Let him do what he wants, he's got all the info he needs.

Thank you, I'll try best to incorporate what greg told me.

[AlexX]

Good advice has already been posted on the oac. Since no one posted about the oap and since I have trained and gotten one I thought I'd answer some questions for you. The way I trained it is first elevate the helping arm, then push it out further, then use a wall as support (you'd be surprised how much assistance an outstretched arm bracing against a wall can actually help). Then I did negatives and after I was able to do a few negatives I was able to do a one arm pushup. Nothing fancy got in about 4-5 months I believe.

"What kind of skills does the strength gained from a full ROM OAP lend too?"

The worst part about one arm pushup is that it transferred over to nothing (at least for me) cool party trick but in my opinion a poor training tool for gymnastic strength. When I asked John Gill about what carry over his OAC had to his ring strength he had a similar answer. On the other had Jack Arnow who trained the one arm chin exclusively was able to do an iron cross without training. So your experience might be different.

"And is the OAP comparable to any weightlifiting exercise or strength?"

Hm I don't think that this really applies but if pressed, I guess decline press, maybe. But if you think a oap is going to skyrocket some weight lifting movement you are sadly mistaken.

[Kiyoshi]

Okay heres the new program:

On a side note, I only have time to train tues, thurs, and weekend. all though I would like to train more

(Thurs, Sun)

Wide Pullup: 5

Wide Chin up: 5

Weighted Pullup/chin up: 5x5 (alternate grips each set)

Frenchie: 5

Reps: normal-15, weighted-25

*weighted day, lower reps

Is that enough weighted reps to make good progress ?

(Tues, Sat)

Wide grip pullup (2x10)

Wide grip chin up (2x10)

Under one arm pull up/chin up (3x5) *each side

Frenchie: 2x5 (each grip)

OAC alternate negatives (2x10) each side

Is that enough reps for high rep day?

I'm also adding in the OAC progressions into these days, is that good or bad idea?

Also please let me know how much weight I should use for the weighted pullups to make most progress. I weigh 160.

Thanks

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't know if Gymgreg agrees, but I found that controlled reps with perfect form were what allowed me to make the best gains in my pull up strength. I believe that you need to find a weight that you can perform 6-7 perfect reps with and use that until you can complete your 5x5 with it, and then go up 1-2 lbs at a time if possible. The MOST important thing is that you are able to complete a MINIMUM of 14 perfect reps in 5 sets. That means that 5x3 reps is ok, but 5,4,2,1,1 is not. Never push the first 2-3 sets too hard, if you do your last 2 sets will be crappy. You will also probably find that your improvement will come in the later sets first. I mean that your 3-5th sets will improve before your first 2 sets improve. Generally speaking. If you get to 4,4,4,2,1 for example you should get to 4,4,4,3,3 and then 4,4,4,4,4 before you try any sets of 5 reps. That's going to be, in my personal experience and what little I have read about such matters, your best plan.

I can't help you on your actual OAC progression volume as well as Gymgreg can, but I think you are trying a bit too much volume there. It looks like an elbow killer to me.

Of course, I'm a really heavy guy and that will be more of an issue for me than a 160-pounder, but you never know.

[Alexander Moreen]

I really think thats ALOT of one arm negatives, if you can do 10 good negatives in a row then you can do a OAC. A negative is taking at least 10 seconds to go down through the whole range of motion, but if you can slow it down more then you should do so because one 30 second negative is going to be better than 10 3 second negatives.