Body type for mens artistic gymnastics? Is my son too tall?

[gymdadUK]

This is my first post-so it may be in the wrong forum and I apologise if this is the case. I hope to get advice with regards to my son. I will need to make some decisions for his future soon. I never did gymnastics myself.

My son is 8 years and 3months old has been doing gymnastics quite seriously for 2years. He really loves it and it has sort of taken life of its own rather more than I expected. He now does about 14 hours training per week. His coach seems to have the right attitude of getting the body ready before learning skills. I am very impressed with his improvement and very proud of him, and while not maybe up to the strength of Coach Sommer's boys he's pretty good and is very flexible too.

I'll apologise if the UK terminology that I have been taught is different but hopefully you'll understand what I'm saying enough to gauge his current status- he can pike press to handstand, straddle lever to handstand, sort of press to japanese handstand, hold a straddle planche for 5s, russian lever, hold a handstand for about 30s, 25circles on a mushroom, 8inward loops on pommel horse, 8 giants on high bar in loops he can't do it in handguards yet, roundoff flick but not roundoff flick tuck yet, front handspring, front salto. He's probably best on p-bars and mushroom and his worst apparatus is probably vault though he can now do a handspring on a table vault. He's not strong enough to muscle up yet on rings, though he can do about 15 of chins on rings and 15 dips on rings so I think its the transition he can't do, but he can do static inlos, straight swinging inlos, dislos etc. He can't hold a front lever or any of the strength holds on rings yet of course. His coach who unfortunately leaves soon says he is good enough to train UK national elite grades (only about 20 boys in a 8-9 year group did it last year) so he's quite good, but if he continues at this level he will need to find a new coach, something his current coach will help find.

Now my question is with regards to doing gymnastics seriously as a sport rather than as a training aid for other sports (which is why I originally got him into gymnastics). I am 5' 11.5" and my wife is 5'9" so I expect him to be about my height or a bit more as an adult. Of course doing elite training is very demanding on time. He is currently about 4'5" so he's average height in his school year (but he's younger than most). In a sense he is maybe an example of what bodyweight training can do for your fitness even if your not ideally proportioned for a sport. For you coaches, ex-gymnasts here, when a coach selects a possible elite gymnast would they discount a boy because he would probably get too tall? My inclination is to let him go as far as he wants if he can find a coach to take him on while he loves it and see how he grows and develops. However, I am now aware how hard a gymnast needs to train and if I do that, am I setting him up for eventual disappointment? Would you suggest his future be better served by transferring to another sport to do competitively more suitable for his body type and using the gymnastics he has learnt for conditioning for that sport?

Thanks in advance for the advice and I apologise again for the very long post and if this in the wrong forum

[deljosque]

if he likes gymnastics, than let him do gymnastics, that´s far more important than thatr he might or might not reach the top

gymnastics if fun so let this boy have the time of his life, swinging, vaulting, flipping and twisting

[Philip Chubb]

If he is still enjoying it, then why take him out? Even in gymnastics, there are a few aspect where it pays to be tall. I think mostly with swinging. But I wouldn't take him out just because he MIGHT not fit the body type later in life. He might even be more disapointed later in life when he realizes he liked gymnastics and now has to start all over because he was taken out before. (Story of my life lol) But really if he still enjoys it, then why take him out. If he loves it so much that he wants to be a world champion, he'll be able to overcome those obstacles.

[gymdadUK]

Thanks for the replies

You're right of course at this stage he is just a little boy and he is doing gymnastics because he loves it and of course we wouldn't take it away from him against his will.

re: Philip....Your point about being tall helping his swings rings also true. Compared to shorter partners his swings to handstand on p-bars or giants, or circles on mushroom seem smoother and he has a nice body line, while say for tumbling it seems relatively harder for him to learn new skills

[gymdadUK]

On re-reading, I think maybe I didn't express myself very well in my first post. I am not looking to take my son out of gymnastics at all and from the first couple of replies maybe I created that impression. However as his coach is going abroad, the status quo isn't an option. He will need to find a new coach at a new club who is trained up to the level required who can take him forward.

In the UK, as I understand it, and ignoring the recreational stuff, there is a two track system for the competitive boys. They can learn so called "club development grade" routines (which are easier) or the fast-track "national elite" grade routines. The boys train and compete these set routines as 9yr olds, 10yr olds, 11yr olds etc in regional competition for the "club development grade" and straight to "national competition" for national elite grade. His coach says probably every other boy in the country doing national elite grade will be at a bigger, better equipped gym club which for us would be further away. We will try to accomodate our son regardless. With the odd exception, pretty much the only boys who would become elite gymansts are going to take the "fast track" national elite grade competition and to do so they need to be coached in those routines.

His current coach would have been happy to train him to national elite routines and enter him directly into the British championships for 9yr olds and has actively encouraged me to think about my son training national elite grade. However, the reality of the situation is my son still needs to attract the interest of another suitably qualified coach because his current coach won't be around at the time of the competition next year.

If a potential new coach was looking at my son to determine if he wants to commit to coaching him national elite for boys would he just look at current ability? Would the coach prefer to only select a child who had all the correct attributes of an ideal mix of strength, flexibility, body type, height for his age, fast twitch fibres etc with parents who suggest he would grow up to be a typical male gymnast phenotype? Would the new coach discount a potentially promising boy who has reached the same standard of moves, but who he quite reasonably suspects is likely to grow too tall because coaching a gymnast can be a long term commitment for the coach? It would be quite understandable because I don't know about the US, but in the UK, coaches aren't doing it to get rich!

The first post was written because I wanted to try to tap into the wider experience of coaches and ex-gymnasts who might have had to make similar decisions partly because if my son is going to get rejections (and perhaps not to do with his current gymnastic ability) I may need to manage his expectations-he's only a little boy. Now he has had it put into his head that he should be doing national elite next year he loves the idea of this. However, its not necessarily his choice or mine either.

I try to be supportive of his interest without being pushy or interfering, and I would love him to be able to support him to go all the way, but only if that is what he wants and only if he continues to stay in love with it.

[Philip Chubb]

Well that is probably the process you want to go through to find a good coach. My coach tells me all the time that he loves training the kids with a good work ethic. Not always the ones who are naturally built for the sport. A lot of times those are the ones that quit apparently because one day their natural ability isn't enough to get a certain skill and they have to work for it. Go figure. If your son is willing to work at it, I can't see why a coach wouldn't take him. If a coach rejects him over that, then I would wonder about the quality of the coach in the first place. Just my two cents.

[gymdadUK]

Thanks for the encouraging words

I hope we'll find a suitably qualified coach within a reasonable distance with the same attitude as your coach, as my son's work ethic is very good. You're right too, I have seen a few boys who look like they will take to it better, but then give up. The desire and motivation to succeed seem just as critical (maybe more so) than the genetics! By the way, did you see the video of the 8 year old that Coach Sommer trains (who is now part of the US national squad) doing planches on the rings. Shows how good good is! I thought my son had a pretty good power to weight level for his age but he is absolutely nowhere near that level! Mind a child can improve an awful lot in a few months

[Philip Chubb]

Exactly! And as I said before, things like swinging elements become easier with height! Plus, even if he doesn't want to compete later, he'll still find himself in shape in a way that 90 percent of the other kids around him aren't. Not only that, but having to work hard at gymnastics teaches things that are even better than being able to go flying through the air. It shows how working hard gets results even if you don't seem suited for a task. I think that's a great lesson for any kid to learn. Everything is easier than the hardest thing you have ever done. Good luck finding a coach!

Yes I saw that! It was amazing. Not only that, but he then went to a full planche. On the rings. Amazing. With things like that and a pair of rings, I don't know why weights were even invented.

[Blairbob]

elite gymnasts come in a variety of sizes pending on event. there are very few awesome all arounders in men's.

being tall is still very doable on HB and FX. Prob not so much on PB and I rarely see tall guys on PH and tall guys can still be impressive on SR. It could possibly effect vaulting but then it depends on which vault? do you see where I'm going with this?

[gymdadUK]

Thanks Blairbob for your advice.

I take your point that one option for my son later (on the advice of his coach) is to become something of an apparatus specialist competitively if he continues to like gymnastics and grows in the way I anticipate. I guess the general public often think of male gymnasts as short and maybe think of tumbling first when gymnastics is mentioned. But your right, competitive gymnastics is not just for that type.

Actually when he started at six, two years ago I asked this question of his coach and he thinks pommel (we have Louis Smith here in the UK after all) and High bar are the apparatus not too disadvantaged by being tall. He too thinks vault can be a problem for the taller gymnast. He did also say then that if he grew too tall he would have to retire!

The regional championships were held today and saw boys up to Under 16. Couple of these older boys were about 5'9" and were pretty good and had impressive physiques.

My son competed in under 10s and did well given most of the boys he competed with were generally two years older, more experienced and came from bigger, better equipped and more prestigious gym clubs: -7th overall out of 33, 4th on PB and 4th on FX. He and his current coach were delighted and a bit surprised!

Its useful to get that benchmark and see what else is out there, so I'm feeling more confident that a new prospective coach will be interested in training him now, when the time arrives. Also feeling of regret that the current coach will be leaving too, as that relationship has worked well for my son!

[Guest]

I can't add anything to the discussion that hasn't been said already (and I'm by no means an expert in gymnastics anyway) but I'd like to congratulate you with this great result your boy achieved! And kudos to yourself, you sound like a great and caring dad

[gymdadUK]

Many thanks biomieg for your kind words-its nice to get feedback (especially when its positive) on a forum, whether its providing technical advice or not. One of the nice things about getting feedback is to give confidence in one's decision making. Your congratulations are for my son's performance (and his coach too) not me.

I'm blushing about your comment about being great and caring dad though...one tries and maybe occasionally succeeds! There are many many parents who sacrifice time (and money) for their children to learn gymnastics. I have heard 4million "gymnasts" in the UK (i don't know if this is true) but if it is....most of them are little girls!

One last comment....I don't know why gymnastics is not used more as a training aid for other sports. There is an older boy at my son's judo club who did gymnastics and now is British champion in his weight category.

[Seiji]

That's pretty funny because I originally took up gymnastics (technically martial arts tricking) to improve my martial arts.

[Guest]

I'm actually glad a thread like this one got started - I don't have any kids yet but I'm 36 and my girlfriend is 29 so the whole 'starting a family' thing is definitely on our minds and I would definitely like to have my kid try out gymnastics so it's nice to read about these experiences, thoughts, and doubts.

[gymdadUK]

Thanks Seiji

You may be interested to hear that one of the training partners (and friend) of my son, who is also a couple of years older, has done karate since he was four and has just passed his grading for his black belt first dan at aged ten years six months. Only problem in his grading was that his kicks were "too high".

Not sure whether karate-derived flexibility has helped his gymnastics more or vice versa. Either way my son's friend is good at both sports. He tends to learn a new gymnastic move a couple of months before my son, they really enjoy each other's company etc so it works well! He pipped my son in the recent comp 4th overall and he won FX.

On the other hand, I think with my son's judo, the gym prepares his body well for judo, rather more than judo helps gym.

Thanks Philip and Blairbob for the advice again

With regards to your previous comments on gymnasts height earlier in the thread leading to eventual preferences for different apparatus, its been an interesting subsequent exercise to re-evaluate the respective strengths of the two of them (I know its only n=2) as it seems to bear out what you say.

The training partner is very explosive with lots of fast twitch fibres, very flexible in splits, and broad across the shoulders, shorter arms and legs and an inch shorter than my son. He is more of what I think is your "typical gymnast shape" than my son maybe and one would have thought genetically ideal for the sport (parents about 5'7" and 5' 2").

This training partner is a lot better than my son at tumbling (e.g. he can do a handspring front salto and do a scruffy roundoff flick straight salto on FX), and vault, and a bit better on low horizontal bar. He can muscle up on rings which my son can't. However, my son is probably marginally better at various press handstands, p-bars, and better at giants on high bar, he circles on mushroom more consistently and with better more extended technique, and his swings on rings are better.

I still find it strange that their coach thinks my son has more chance of reaching an elite standard despite being to my mind clearly less suited genetically (at least before I joined this forum), and perhaps less gifted, but maybe its because: 1) he started gym seriously at six rather than eight so they are at much the same level when he's over two years younger, 2) he perhaps tries harder at the conditioning aspects of gym training, and 3) gym is more clearly his preferred sport.

I hope they both can continue to train together too when we find a new coach.

[gymdadUK]

Thanks biomieg

Enjoy starting the family......your life will never be same again after your first child is born!

I introduced all my kids to a local recreational gym pre-school. My eldest daughter didn't really like it despite being the most naturally flexible at say five. My second daughter still does it recreationally and competes at a lower level, but is really much more interested in dance-she too is going to be too tall for gym and being tall is harder for girls I think than for boys. However, she is extremely flexible now and I think doing gym helps her to be a better dancer. My son (my youngest) adores it.

My experience is you can introduce your kids to gym like any sport but I found you just have to let them find their own level of interest.

[Blairbob]

One of the biggest problems regarding height in youths is growth spurts as they can get just spiral training downward. It can take some months before they get back to where they were before and it can show what their character is like whether they stick with it or eventually quit. It's a hard fight.

http://www.stickitmedia.com/who-are-the-tallest-in-mens-gymnastics/ This was a 3 part series I came across on GymnasticsCoaching. There are some posts over there if you search regarding tall female gymnasts as well.

He is still young and not all gymnasts go on to competing in college or in HS. Many can become national or world champions in a variety of other sports besides cheer, diving, and pole-vaulting or even trampoline, power tumbling, rhythmic, acro, etc.

[gymdadUK]

Thanks Blairbob for the link. Thats really interesting- a 6'3'' NCAA champion on FX! Excuse my ignorance but I am assuming that is a very high standard. I had heard of Berki at 5'10" being a world class pommel specialist, but in my ignorance I thought that was about the maximum for male gymnasts. There you go, you learn something new!

With regards to your point about gymnasts converting to other sports-thats exactly why I let my son increase training from 1h recreational classes once a week to 6h a week at six years old. I had sort of envisaged he would change sport at some point, but at that age I figured doing gymnastics training would be better for him. He would pick up gymnastic skills easier when his body was little, rather than learning the skills of most other sports which you can pick up efficiently later. Gymmnastics would help his body grow in the right way. As you can tell from my first post I still see this as a possible option, as he loves sport generally. Maybe if he experiences a growth spurt and can't work through it in the way Blairbob describes then he will change.

The other point is familiar to those who have seen the film Chariots of Fire when future 1924 Olympic 100m champion Harold Abrahams asks an elite coach Sam Mussobini to train him. He replies something like, "Mr Abrahams, do you have a girl? Would you expect her to ask you to marry you? Its the coach who should do the asking. I'll watch you and if I see something I'll be the one to come and ask you" His coach actively wanted to train him so I figured my son would get the benefit of his close attention. I respected the ability of the gym coach, who had coached my son recreationally for a year, so it seemed sensible. In the UK, as a parent you do whats locally available. If I had lived somewhere else it might have been another sport though, and I would not be on this forum.

At five and six in the UK, many parents try their kids at football (soccer) training (another early specialisation sport). I did too and he was quite good but other kids were better, I quickly saw that things that had come naturally to me just didn't for him. More importantly he just wasn't interested in it really compared with the majority of boys who just dreamed of playing football for Manchester United and England. At six in the UK, the premiership football (soccer) clubs already monitor kids. It is such a big business nobody is missed.

With regards to growth spurts and effects on gymnastic skills I've seen this with my daughter. Mind, I think she was also put off when her little brother started doing more training and learnt gymnastic skills she hadn't and couldn't pick up. I encouraged her to keep going at gym and she still does it but now she accepts he's just better, and its not her main thing.

[Philip Chubb]

No problem! Maybe we should start a thread on exactly what is the "ideal" body composition for a gymnast. But there would be so many exceptions. Gymnastics is like 3 or 4 different sports all rolled into one. The person who is good at this is bad at that and vice versa. But as always, loving the sport and working hard go so much further. Those are definitely the kids I enjoy teaching the most.

[gymdadUK]

Philip wrt idea on new thread on ideal body composition-its sounds like a good idea to me. I would be interested to read what the various experts on this forum had to say on that but I probably wouldn't be qualified to contribute as I've no gymnastics background

[Philip Chubb]

I can't say I would know either. Everything would have an exception. A shorter person might have better crosses but their swings might be less powerful for that reason. Blairbob, you are a coach, do you have any idea what would be "ideal"?

[Blairbob]

For gymnastics in general or per event. Yes, I am a coach, but more of an amateur gymnastics coach compared to Coach Sommer and a few of the other coaches on the board. In general, short and light is good but it's hard to fight genetics.

I have been coaching for 10 years now, so that means I've been a good coach for about 3 years...mebbe.

[gymdadUK]

Just thought I'd update people who so kindly contributed their advice to my question. My son's coach is now leaving before Christmas, and he is now planning to organise a trial with another gym club which he recommends. We'll see if a new coach will take my son on to do National Elite. I think this sort of approach probably comes better from another coach than a parent so I'm happy about his development.

I'm more hopeful now that a new coach will be sufficiently interested to put in the time and effort required to develop my son. The coach-gymnast relationship seems so important that of course you don't know if its going to work out even then.

I can, however, boast about my son's acheivements as he just did another competition...this time a 6 piece doing the British Gymnastics National Development Plan routines he will need to do next summer if he trains the club development route (i.e if a new coach won't take him on to do national elite)..... he did well: - three golds on floor, p-bars and high bar and silver overall. This time he was only competing against boys in his age group rather than older boys too. The boy who pipped him overall was 3 months older, a couple of inches shorter and the regional champion from another region. As there are ten regions in the UK, this gives me a good idea where he stands now. For him, I guess it was easier when you are 8 years old not to have to compete against 10 yr olds !

On another thread on height and rings there was a wealth of useful information form Coach Sommer and many of the other experts which was really useful to me. It may amuse everone that yesterday my son told me his ambition was to be the first champion gymnast who is six feet tall.

I am confident now that his height is not disadvantaging him (at least yet) on five apparatus... though vault still probably remains his Achilles heel. Thanks to this forum for letting me share my concerns and get feedback from a knowledgable audience but still in a more anonynous way..it is much appreciated.

[Blairbob]

What are his dimensions now? He is 8 or 10?

[gymdadUK]

Dear Blairbob

my son is 4'5'' tall

he weighs 29.8kg (69lbs)

he is 8year 4months old

his definition is very good for a child and his body fat will be very low

arms and legs quite long for height

In the UK for boys, your gym age is your chronological age on Jan 1 of the year. Is that the same in the US? So when younger children are graded the ones born earlier in the year will have a developmental advantage over the ones born later in the year which I guess becomes progressively less important as they grow older. So you can compete in an under 8 comp in December when you are nearly 9. In an under 10 comp you can be nearly 11. So the last comp my son was 8y 4m in an Under 8 comp against boys up to 8years 11months old, while the in the previous comp I mentioned he was 8y3m in an Under 10 comp so against boys up to 10years 10months old. Does that make sense?

The youngest age group for the National Development Plan grading is Over 8s/under 9s and because it will be I think in the late spring summer, my son will not yet be 9. What was hopeful was he already can perfrom to a good standard the same routines he will compete next summer for the lower club development grades. There are a few harder skills in the National elite grades which he cannot do yet....i.e. on floor from D-shape a chest roll to handstand, a handspring from only 1or 2 steps rather than a run-up; on p-bars a manna lever.

Looking at his school class mates he seems average height, perhaps he is only tall in comparison with his gym colleagues he trains with who maybe are particularly short for their age.