Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Joshua Naterman]

Rice + bean protein is apparently a great combination for completeness so I would think that pea protein would work.

Bob: Sorry man! Didn't mean to hit a nerve! Those are great links though I didn't know about the sprouted rice protein either, that's really cool. I agree fully that vegetarian proteins are just not cost effective, either in raw money OR in net effectiveness per serving.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Sliz! I think I've finally (re)found a protein powder that doesn't disagree with me! The first test container I got was something called "Whey Protein Isolate (CFM) Cross-Flow Microfiltration". My options for my next order are:

1) Whey Protein Isolate (CFM) Cross-Flow Microfiltration

2) Whey Protein Isolate Cold-Filtration

3) Whey Protein Isolate Microfiltrated

I intend to use it primarily for pre and post workout nutrition and I intend to use it a LOT. Which do you think would be most appropriate?

[Blairbob]

Patrick, did you have problems with whey concentrates? The lactose in them? Did you try hydrosalates (though even more expensive and I did read that WPI absorb better than WPH).

Sliz, just the other day I was bored and checked out the numbers on some brown rice. Basically, while there is some protein per serving, you'd have to eat as a much as a sumotori to get a lot of protein from it. 6g/serving? 40-50carbs/serving?

In my mother's country, rice and beans are very common since many in Peru are poor.

Here are some numbers on pea protein. More L-arginine than whey protein concentrate but less of Leucine, IsoLeucine, and Valine, the big 3 of BCAA. Still, 2nd rate for the most part compared to whey.

It is interesting that the vegetable proteins provide more L-arginine than whey.

http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/M102076.htm

Yeah, I try not to even go on my soy tangent. It's bad enough I have to deal with gymnasts who are vegetarian. You can only imagine the comments between myself and the Ukranian Olympian regarding them. In the last 10 years, my vegetarian gymnasts have often been the ones that have suffered from a lack of enough calories, iron issues, being sick constantly or generally being weaker.

I don't think that being vegetarian (generally most are not vegan if I recall and incorporate fish or dairy -yeah, whatev) was merely the culprit but it does sometimes go hand in hand. Thus, it's annoying to have an athlete who cannot train (efficiently) because of some silly BS.

[EastWind]

Actually, the numbers on pea protein from Now Foods with regards to BCAA are pretty close to those from whey protein of the same manufacturer.

Whey protein: 5.9g total BCAA / 42 g scoop (26g protein)

Pea protein: 4.8g total BCAA / 33 g scoop (28g protein)

The difference is really small.

I'm going to place an order for pea protein soon, as I didn't find another good vegetarian protein source here. Hemp is not an option here, it contains ash and is more expensive than a pea protein which cames from the States, including transportation.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Patrick, did you have problems with whey concentrates? The lactose in them? Did you try hydrosalates (though even more expensive and I did read that WPI absorb better than WPH).

Bob, I don't think I've tried any whey concentrates, but like I said, the protein powder I have now has not been giving my any problems! 8)

[Blairbob]

Whey concentrate is simpler than whey isolate as it still has lactose bonded to it whereas isolate pretty much doesn't. However, with isolates, the processing denatures a lot of bioactive stuff in whey. I'm not sure if that's the same with hydrosalates.

[Rafael David]

Hey Slizz, can you tell me in what bean & rice lose to meat? I mean about protein and vitamins...

[Joshua Naterman]

Fat-soluble vitamins and protein, as you have said!

Like Blairbob mentioned, there isn't very much protein in rice per serving. You're looking at 6-8g of protein and 35-42g of carbs on average, and then with the beans you're looking at 16-30g of protein and 48-70+g of carbs per serving, so together you're looking at an absolute maximum of 38g but most likely around 20-24g of protein per meal, with a minimum of 90g of carbs and most likely well over 100g of carbs per meal. Considering how much more of these proteins it takes to construct tissue than whey, it becomes a bit inefficient by comparison but it will still work and keep you fairly healthy.

As long as you aren't really wrecking yourself with crap food this shouldn't be a huge problem, and in my opinion as long as you sip on some whey throughout the day to make sure your blood is saturated with amino acids you can eat just about any healthy foods you want to fill in all the calories! It's working great for me.

[Rafael David]

Thanks again for your patience... you can tell me how it seems your daily meal plan?

[Joshua Naterman]

Sure! I generally put 30g of protein and 10-15g of glucose into a half gallon of water, and this is what I sip throughout the day. I only make 2 liters at a time because that way it never lasts more than 5-6 hours so the protein doesn't get nasty.

I lightly steam a LOT of veggies, and I eat different stuff all the time. Sweet potatoes and rice are my main carb sources, though I will be getting some bulk buckwheat and sprouting that and eating it. I also eat a fair amount of mung bean sprouts, which I mix with brown rice and then add a little coconut-based curry sauce for flavor. The veggies are all very low calorie so I don't count them as a carb source per se. I DO eat tons of fruit now, particularly pitted fruits like peaches and nectarines. I eat anywhere from 4-5 pieces to like 15 pieces if it's pretty much just a protein drink + fruit day.

Every other day is a low calorie day, more or less, and I am less concerned with trying to keep an intermittent schedule these days. It seems less necessary now, my body is really working well and seems to be staying that way. I do occasionally do so just because, especially on weekends.

Most of my veggies are green. Now I must sleep so I can get up early and steam the greens!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Sliz, I've been consistently (49 days out of 50) eating less than 100g of carbs a day, and that has almost been entirely from vegetables and a few fruit. At first I felt a bit more tired than usual, but after a while I started feeling fine. I feel fine now. Do you think I'm mostly fat adapted? I'm re-reading your first post and organizing my PWO routine, and it's hard to get a 2:1 carb:protein ratio if you're eating cucumbers, brockley, and cabbage!

Also, when I lowered my carb intake to less then 100g, I also increased my fat intake to about 160g, but sometimes it's less. I'm trying to get more coconut milk, though, and raise it to about 200.

Thanks

[Joshua Naterman]

If you have increased fat intake then yes, you are probably experiencing an enzyme shift towards fat metabolism. Either way though, your body has become much more sensitive to insulin and glucagon, which is ideal! I too feel fine all the time now, doesn't matter whether I slam a bunch of french toast and blueberry waffles (rare, but it does happen!) or just eat steamed greens. Nothing messes me up. It's great!

If you're trying to get lean just make sure to do the math with the fat and try to keep it spread out. Coconut milk gets in you quickly, and over 90% of fat gets stored as fat while only 70% of your resting metabolism energy is derived from fat so if you just slam a bunch of coconut milk you CAN store more fat than you burn. Carbs are much less likely to go to fat and protein is the least likely, which is why it is a little easier to drop fat with a truly proper diet that is balanced across the three.

Having said that, you can absolutely to just as well with a higher fat diet, you just have to pay a little more attention to what KINDS of fat you eat (slow vs fast, just like carbs) and when you eat them. In a way fat is similar to carbs, only it doesn't spike insulin.

[Blairbob]

Sliz, per that anecdotal study of sipping whey all the day to stimulate anabolism, I've been trying to do something with protein and milk intake so my body is basically always digesting protein. It's just tricky to keep up.

Regarding pea and whey protein. Go back and look at the numbers of Isoleucine, Leucine, Valine, Alanine, and Glutamic acid. Those are the critical amino acids where there is a difference. Arginine not so much because neither have great amounts of Arginine in them compared to beef or egg.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

If you're trying to get lean just make sure to do the math with the fat and try to keep it spread out. Coconut milk gets in you quickly, and over 90% of fat gets stored as fat while only 70% of your resting metabolism energy is derived from fat so if you just slam a bunch of coconut milk you CAN store more fat than you burn. Carbs are much less likely to go to fat and protein is the least likely, which is why it is a little easier to drop fat with a truly proper diet that is balanced across the three.

Having said that, you can absolutely to just as well with a higher fat diet, you just have to pay a little more attention to what KINDS of fat you eat (slow vs fast, just like carbs) and when you eat them. In a way fat is similar to carbs, only it doesn't spike insulin.

Ah. The fats I get are pretty specific since I don't eat a lot of different fatty foods. Usually my biggest sources of fat are 30g EVOO (for fried eggs - that I eat essentially every day), mayonaise (which I am currently cutting), 45g coconut milk, "sunbutter" (a sunflower seed butter that I am also cutting), eggs, and meat and fish.

I'm very glad you said that, because I've been taking my coconut milk in doses of 45-50g. I suppose I'll break it down a bit to around 25g.

I'm re-reading this thread, and I really want to get close to what is both optimal and possible in my nutrition. I have a big Google Doc file of your first post, and I spent a while reading and trying to break it down into a form I can easily understand and relate to.

I've copied and pasted my "breakdown" of how I think I could implement what you wrote into my schedule.

2 hours before - 25g protein, 60g fat, and 20g carbs (fried eggs in EVOO and greens)

1 hour before - 20g of TPP, 30g coconut milk, and a few greens

15 minutes before - 5g BCAA, Multivitamin powder, some greens and a small handful of berries

During workout - Berries or grapes and a lot of water throughout the WO - at least 16-32oz

Directly after - 5g BCAA, 10g Creatine Monohydrate (?g), and greens/fruits smoothie.

15 minutes after - 25g TPP and some fruit.

30 minutes after - 25g TPP and 25g coconut milk

1 hour after - 25g of protein from meat and a banana.

1½ hours after - 25g TPP and 25g coconut milk

Does this look about right?

In less than a few weeks, I'll know my college class schedule and my part-time job schedule, but I'm pretty sure it will involve me doing my WOD training early morning (by then I'll have my garage gym set up so I won't disturb the family). If I take my "1 hour before" meal at 5:00 am and my "15 minutes before" meal at 5:45, couldn't I do my prehab, soft tissue work, and warm up (including FSP?) from 5:30-6:00 am? The actual work would start at 6 am, and not before.

This is how I would fit in the WOD early morning starting at 5 am:

Workout Nutrition for an Early Workout Day

5:00 am - 1 Hour Pre-WO: 20g of TPP, 30g coconut milk, and a few greens

5:45 am - 5g BCAA, Multivitamin powder, some greens and a small handful of berries

6:00-6:40 am - Berries and grapes and a lot of water throughout the WO - at least 16-32oz

6:45 am - 5g BCAA, 10g Creatine Monohydrate (?g), and greens/fruits smoothie.

7:00 am - 25g TPP and some fruit.

7:30 am - 25g TPP and 25g coconut milk

8:30 am - 25g of protein from meat and a banana.

9:00 am - 25g TPP and 25g coconut milk

Then I’m off to work or college, but I’ll get about 50 more grams of whey before afternoon, and close to 40-50g of more protein later on (non-whey)

As you can see, I skip the meal between 7:40 am and 8:30 am. I hope that's not too bad. I'm a Catholic and I attend daily Mass at 8 am. It's an inconvenient time unfortunately, but it's too important to me for me to skip it. I will just try to work around it.

Thanks a bundle

[Rafael David]

Sure! I generally put 30g of protein and 10-15g of glucose into a half gallon of water, and this is what I sip throughout the day. I only make 2 liters at a time because that way it never lasts more than 5-6 hours so the protein doesn't get nasty.

1. So are a total of 120g of protein and 60g of glucose per day , right?

2. And you sip this between the meals or 2 in 2 hours, how you do?

3. So, without meat, how you do about the vitamins?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm really thinking about cut off meat from my diet... :roll: Always thankful, Slizz!

[Joshua Naterman]

More like 70-80g protein. There's nothing wrong with using maltodextrin either, really. Depends on what you like. I like the glucose for the most part.

I just drink it like it's water. When I'm thirsty, that's what I drink. I drink a few times an hour, a little at a time, as I need it. If I am thirstier I drink more, sometimes a quart at a time. This way I stay hydrated and full of protein without wasting anything.

[Blairbob]

Is this something you do/use throughout the day?

[Rafael David]

More like 70-80g protein. There's nothing wrong with using maltodextrin either, really. Depends on what you like. I like the glucose for the most part.

I just drink it like it's water. When I'm thirsty, that's what I drink. I drink a few times an hour, a little at a time, as I need it. If I am thirstier I drink more, sometimes a quart at a time. This way I stay hydrated and full of protein without wasting anything.

And the vitamins like b12, you don't worry about that?

[Joshua Naterman]

Nah, they're in my multivitamin. All are coenzyme forms, that is important. I don't worry about the other stuff, my diet is pretty much spot on so I get all kinds of veggies and fruits. Vitamins and minerals are not a problem between that and the multi. I am taking Poliquin's multivitamin. Great product!

[Larry Roseman]

Hey,

(edited this upon reflection)

I'm looking to diet once or twice per week at most, so it doesn't have a major impact on my training schedule.

I'd like to drop 3 pounds over about 6 weeks, so not a lot quickly. And I don't want to eat on a deficit more than 1-2x per week.

With the eat-stop-eat approach, the first day basically means skipping dinner/dessert and late snacks.

This would produce a 900 cal deficit approximately, assuming no extra eating earlier in the day.

The second day, it means skipping breakfast and having a later lunch. This would produce something like an 500 cal deficit.

Combined this is about a 1400K deficit - or about .4 pound per week. Almost enough!

It seems almost easier to get a deficit with LG 2x week, as one is not trying to stuff oneself to supercompensate for the

impending 24 hour fast. With LG I could easily do 800 cal deficit 2 days in a row. With E-S-E I am concerned that I would want to eat a lot before and after the fast to make up for it (if only fasting once per week). Is this a realistic concern or a paper tiger?

So I may try both and see what works for me. But if anyone can shed light on this subject I am interested.

Thanks!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

1) Protein doesn't stay in suspension well. Which is to say every minute you have whey in water it is denaturing, or to say it another way - It will turn rancid. AA profiles will go down significantly.

2) Intrest in fat adaptation - You almost need to pay more attention to the P/F ratio than the C/F. Protein still raises insulin - Further, whey spikes it.

3) Cheep way to get maltodextrin is at a wine shop. They use it to make their own wine, way cheaper than any supplement version.

4) There are 9(ish) essential/indispensable amino acids - don't focus just on 3(BCAA). They are all important. Besides, BCAA is most effective pre.

Jeff, what do you think a good P/F ratio is? My general P/F/C ratio is 1:1:1/2

[Joshua Naterman]

1) Protein doesn't stay in suspension well. Which is to say every minute you have whey in water it is denaturing, or to say it another way - It will turn rancid. AA profiles will go down significantly.

2) Intrest in fat adaptation - You almost need to pay more attention to the P/F ratio than the C/F. Protein still raises insulin - Further, whey spikes it.

3) Cheep way to get maltodextrin is at a wine shop. They use it to make their own wine, way cheaper than any supplement version.

4) There are 9(ish) essential/indispensable amino acids - don't focus just on 3(BCAA). They are all important. Besides, BCAA is most effective pre.

1) Yea, it's not too bad over a few hours but thats why I use such small volumes. When I was on my ship I did dry powder 2-3 times an hour so that was really the way to go and absolutely does make a difference! I'm just being lazy now, and it is still working extremely well. I may end up making 1 quart at a time and seeing how that works out, since that would further reduce the suspension time. How long do you think the whey can be suspended in water before there's an unacceptable amount of denaturing?

2) Yep.

3) AWESOME! Thanks!

4) I hope everyone remembers this. Thank you!

[Philip Chubb]

1) Protein doesn't stay in suspension well. Which is to say every minute you have whey in water it is denaturing, or to say it another way - It will turn rancid. AA profiles will go down significantly.

2) Intrest in fat adaptation - You almost need to pay more attention to the P/F ratio than the C/F. Protein still raises insulin - Further, whey spikes it.

3) Cheep way to get maltodextrin is at a wine shop. They use it to make their own wine, way cheaper than any supplement version.

4) There are 9(ish) essential/indispensable amino acids - don't focus just on 3(BCAA). They are all important. Besides, BCAA is most effective pre.

Jeff, what do you think a good P/F ratio is? My general P/F/C ratio is 1:1:1/2

The optimal ratio would most likely change based on a lot of different factors. (Body type, body composition, current adaptation, activity level, type of activity ect ect.)

[Quick Start Test Smith]

The optimal ratio would most likely change based on a lot of different factors. (Body type, body composition, current adaptation, activity level, type of activity ect ect.)

Yeah, you're right.

[Joshua Naterman]

Any ideas on where I can find some lab info regarding whey breakdown in water? I have been unable to find anything on pubmed or on the web in general that suggest what I am doing currently affects the protein in any negative fashion. Everything seems to be suggesting that it is a non-issue, especially for just a few hours. Heat is an issue but not one I have to deal with. Any help here would be great! I hate not knowing what is going on with stuff like this.