Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Jeff, what do you think a good P/F ratio is? My general P/F/C ratio is 1:1:1/2

Difficult to answer without knowing specifics. As far a generic answer - RDA says .8/KB BW for protein, most recommend 1.2-1.4, Jeff Volek says 1.8ish, Poliquin says 3ish. I would use 1.5g/lb of BW as a minimum. In terms of a ratio to fat are you counting calories or grams?

That's helpful, generic though it is. I always count grams and for some foods (like some vegetables) I closely guess. I know the basic gram count of most of the foods that I eat on a daily bases. In fact, I've kept a nutrition journal with the details of each meal of the day. Glad to know about eh 1.5g/lb. I've been getting around or a bit less than 200g protein a day, and while I'm getting good results (just started getting 200g day two weeks ago), I want to be very thick. I'll increase it to 250g protein a day or as close to it as I can get! Thank God for True Protein or I'd never be able to afford it.

[Joshua Naterman]

CP has some stuff on it. He says after 1 hour.

Cool, thanks! I saw a post by some chick who used to be sponsored who had the same thing, one hour.

[Falcon]

Wait, that means the protein will break down in 1 hour, if its put in the water? Even creatine isn't breaking down that fast in H2O. (see http://www.ergo-log.com/diycreatinedrink.html)

[Joshua Naterman]

Creatine starts breaking down fairly quickly, but that doesn't matter because 90% of monohydrate turns into creatinine before it hits your blood anyways. Whey protein, while it DOES denature, denatures in a functional manner but the nutritional value doesn't change. It takes enzymes, bacteria or extreme heat (like 200+ degrees consistently, and really more like 300+) to affect the nutritional value. I don't know anything more specific than that, and all I can say is that everything I have found everywhere supports that, as does the way it feels when I drink my drink 4 hours after I mix it. Feels the exact same as fresh.

[Larry Roseman]

Creatine starts breaking down fairly quickly, but that doesn't matter because 90% of monohydrate turns into creatinine before it hits your blood anyways. Whey protein, while it DOES denature, denatures in a functional manner but the nutritional value doesn't change. It takes enzymes, bacteria or extreme heat (like 200+ degrees consistently, and really more like 300+) to affect the nutritional value. I don't know anything more specific than that, and all I can say is that everything I have found everywhere supports that, as does the way it feels when I drink my drink 4 hours after I mix it. Feels the exact same as fresh.

I found link is from Cornell, known for their agricultural science department.

http://www.milkfacts.info/Milk%20Compos ... rotein.htm

As you stated above they also do:

Influence of Heat Treatment on Milk Proteins

... Denaturation causes a change in the physical structure of proteins, but generally does not affect the amino acid composition and thus the nutritional properties. Severe heat treatments such as ultra high pasteurization may cause some damage to heat sensitive amino acids and slightly decrease the nutritional content of the milk. The whey protein α-lactalbumin, however, is very heat stable.

But theY add ...

Deterioration of Milk Protein

...Two amino acids in milk, methionine and cystine are sensitive to light and may be degraded with exposure to light. This results in an off-flavor in the milk and loss of nutritional quality for these 2 amino acids.

I suppose this means that keeping the protein liquid in an opaque bottle is better than not.

But I don't know the timeframe they are talking about - minutes, hours or days!

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, intense light can damage those. Something about the sulfur in them. Opaque bottles are better, but if you keep your bottle in your bookbag it doesn't matter much.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I've been reading about the PWO carbs to protein ratio at Poliquin's website (link). If I understand correctly, he suggests 2:1 carb:protein ratio for "resistance trained/anaerobic athletes to get the greatest increases in strength and hypertrophy." That would mean that if I get 50 grams of protein over the hour PWO, I need to get 100 grams of carbs. That seems like a lot...

Poliquin also suggests that the average person in America doesn't need more than 40-50 grams of carbs a day and that if you want to get lean, cut carbs considerably and once you are lean to bring them back up if you like. That's from one of his tips and it's on his website somewhere. I can't find the link.

Isn't this contradictory? Or does he just mean that the average sedentry American shouldn't be getting more than 40-50g of carbs? I'm definitely training to lean out as much as possible quickly.

[Razz]

Until you are below 10% bf you should not have carbs peri-workout according to CP.

[Joshua Naterman]

Until you are below 10% bf you should not have carbs peri-workout according to CP.

This is probably true if your main goal is dropping body fat, but my experience has been that low levels of carbs works better since it helps preserve the protein that you are taking in. Your body is trying to regenerate glycogen at the same time and if you don't have the carbs you're just going to lose 37% of the protein, and protein is too expensive for me to sit by and let that go down.

That 2:1 carbs to protein ratio is only going to be true if you burn a certain amount of glycogen, but yes you have the right of it. That's based on insulin spikes and all sorts of things, to try and get the best absorption of protein PWO, but I have honestly found that I have made insanely good gains with slightly below 1:1 and lost fat in the process. Still, for maximum strength/size gains CP is probably right. 100g of carbs isn't that much dude, it's 400 calories. Not a big deal. Spread it out into 2-3 doses so you don't feel gross when you take it in!

As far as the "average person" goes, Poliquin has a reasonable platform to stand on. He's talking about people who go to work and go home. They aren't doing anything that requires glycogen stores to be depleted, and so their only concern is to always provide enough carbs for the brain to function each day, which is about 50g. Your body will run off of whatever else you give it, and 70% of your non-workout energy comes straight from body fat so it's not a big deal or a crazy concept to be low calorie for a good long while. So what if your metabolism dips 30-40%? Everyone freaks out about this and it's not a bad thing! It means your food bill just went down 30-40%. You can still get big and strong and lean. It just happens slightly slower than normal, except for the lean part. Here's a concept that always gets glossed over: A large part of the increased metabolism from eating food is actually a result of the body having to PROCESS said food. It has to be heated up, it has to be digested, it has to be transported. Every one of those steps utilizes some energy, and you're looking at close to half of the 40% metabolism increase from "the thermic effect of food" right there. All the advertising and supplement companies have you all scared of something that really doesn't matter that much: having a lower metabolism for a while. You know the main effect that has? SLOWER AGING. Don't tell me anyone is going to complain about THAT.

You're still going to burn the same calories when you work out, so your sprints or other intervals are still going to be mega effective. You're still going to build virtually the same amount of muscle, anabolic processes still upregulate post workout. You will simply have to adjust to eating less, which is actually really easy. If I can say that at my size, and with my former eating habits, I think it's true across the board.

If you don't want a lowered metabolism just reduce calories every other day. You'll still be at an overall deficit, just like the gov't, but at least YOU will fool your body into functioning normally despite being reduced calorie.

Anyways, you have to remember that CP holds the position that NO MAN should be over 10% bodyfat, period. His recommendations reflect the lifestyle that gets you there most easily. It also happens to be a fairly natural lifestyle in terms of pre-agriculture societies (to the best of our knowledge) but that's a separate issue. Still, good to know for people who care about such things.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I'm really trying to pack on some weight right now as well as cut down, and I'm trying to put this into a practical form for me. You mention that if I don't want to lower my metabolism, I should lower calories every other day. Does it mean that I should continue around (but generally less than) 100 grams of carbohydrates a day, but every other day get about 50g? OR does it mean that I would be cutting fat down a bit? Any particular percentage? I know you mentioned 30-40% in another topic, is that close enough? I've been getting around 140F, 300-325P, and ~60-100C daily and I seem to be gaining weight, but not really cutting down fat percentage too much.

[Joshua Naterman]

Drop the fat every other day down to 40-50g. Keep the rest the same and you should see good results. Your body will store 90+% of unused fat as body fat and that will slow things down since only 70% of resting metabolism is from body fat. That's not a positive balance.

[Jason Stein]

Patrick, Josh, Razz,

As an interesting aside to your conversation, I once had my friend Scott Hagnas here at Xfit PDX write a Gymnastic Bodies-based PWO prescription based on Poliquin's ideas and methodologies, and for each of Coach Sommer's posted workouts.

Scott is a Level II BioSig practitioner as well as a Level I (maybe Level II after next week?) PICP coach, so this prescription reflects his interpretation of PWO refueling based on Poliquin's ideas with regards to protein/carb ratios. You'll notice carb intake trends lower based on athlete's bodyfat.

(The caveat is Scott is aware of my body comp, height/weight, physical output, etc, so it is written for me specifically. It's not a one-size-fits-all template.)

I should ask him to update this again based on his evolving ideas on carb intake as well as dairy for mass gain --- I know Scott currently feels low-carb all the time is less than ideal, but we haven't spoken regarding specifics of PWO.

Anyway, I thought this might be of interest as far as how specific the PICP/BioSig coaching can get.

best,

jason

Workouts:

RING STRENGTH

Length: ~3 minutes

BF above 12%: 35p/10c

BF 8-12%: 35p/25c

BF below 8%: 35p/40c

3g taurine, possibly glutamine 10g.

EMBEDDED STATIC + STRENGTH SETS

Length: ~20 minutes-30 minutes

BF above 12%: 35p/10c

BF 8-12%: 35p/20c

BF below 8%: 35p/30c

Possibly taurine if nervous system jacked up.

CONDITIONING - PUSH, PULL, LEG

Length: ~10-15 minutes

BF above 12%: 40p/15c

BF 8-12%: 40p/25c

BF below 8%: 40p/40c

10g glutamine

LEG STRENGTH

Length: ~20 minutes

BF above 12%: 35p/10c

BF 8-12%: 35p/15c

BF below 8%: 35p/20c

HANDSTAND CONDITIONING

Length: ~20-30 minutes

BF above 12%: 25p/10c

BF 8-12%: 25p/15c

BF below 8%: 25p/20c

For mass gain, keep the prot as rx'ed, but increase to 50-70g cho for all workouts. P/F/C meal 45-60 min later, low GI veg.

Prot total for the day for you - 160-200g. Vit D3 - loading dose(see me if interested), possibly include organic dairy for a short phase of mass gain.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Perfect, Slizz! Thanks! I'm aiming for AROUND about 8% BF by January. Eventually I'd like to be 5-6% BF... I think it's realistic since I'll have about five months to do it and I've been eating as perfectly as I know how. Only mistakes have been eating too much fruit, but that was because I thought I should. Otherwise no mess ups.

Jason, that is very helpful! According to that info, I've been generally on the right track. The one thing that makes a difference for me is that I have A LOT of PWO meals instead of just one. If I use that, I'll just use it as a guide for the first meal. I've been looking up the Poliquin's method of incorporating L-Glutamine PWO, too. Are you familiar with that, Jason?

Edit:

I just found this:

WL: How do you feel about glutamine?

CP: I’ve used a lot of it. I use it with fat

guys as a substitute to replace glycogens after

a workout. I use about 60g post-workout.

WL:How do you feel about glutamine and

general intestinal health? Do you think it’s

overrated?

CP: No.When a guy can’t gain weight, a

quick cure is 80g of glutamine per day for a

few days. It helps them repair the gut lining

so they can absorb food better. I actually

like glutamine. I consider fat as anyone with

more than 10% body fat. Until they get to

10%, I only use whey protein, glycine and

glutamine post workout. If they get over

10%,we start using glutamine.

WL: Will you do no carbs during the whole

2 hour window post workout when you are

using glutamine?

CP: Correct.No carbs if you are fat.

Hmmm

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice Jason! See, that's about what I would think the macronutrient ratios would be just based on my personal results, knowledge of the interactive processes of metabolism and honestly how I feel when I have different amounts of carbs and protein.

It's been a while since you've posted that I've seen, how have you been and how's your training going?

[Joshua Naterman]

I think that no one can deny Poliquin's ability to produce visible results, so I'm not going to try and argue against what he is recommending. Glutamine does get converted into practically everything (many amino acids as well as sugar) so the high dose won't be wasted, and I forget what the glycine does but my understanding is that it also helps with glycogen replenishment in the absence of carbs.

All I will say this: That's an expensive protocol to follow, but it probably will produce superior results. I don't think something like that is really called for unless A) you're trying to drop from 12 to 10% and are having trouble or B) You just can't seem to drop weight at all despite doing things "right." And of course if you have to be ready for a photo shoot or something it's probably a good idea to use the most surefire protocol to ensure you look good when it counts lol!

[Jason Stein]

Josh,

I have been doing really well, thank you for asking; I followed a 6-week G-Bodies cycle earlier this year before returning to exclusively hand-balancing and other specific goals. I expect to return to Coach Sommer's programming later this year, though I'm considering how to balance it with my specific equilibre goals as well as my specific flexibility needs.

As for CP's recommended glutamine suggestion and its cost --- I moderate my Poliquin intake by always remembering that he is, in addition to a strength coach, a supplement salesman! "Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

Still, the deepening levels of PWO manipulation can be endlessly fascinating.

best,

jason

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Makes sense...makes sense. Just for now, I'll use glutamine for the 2 hours PWO until I run out (may as well, I already have the glutamine).

To sum up:

POST WORKOUT

Immediate PWO - 10g Creatine+10g Glutamine.

15 minutes PWO - 35P and 10g Glutamine

45 minutes PWO - 25P and 10g glutamine

75 minutes PWO - 25P and 10g glutamine

After that I would begin eating my vegetables with my protein.

EVERY OTHER DAY

I'll cut fat intake to about 40-50g.

Sliz, I know you say that only 7 grams or so of protein can be absorbed by the body in an hour, but I seem to do pretty well on a much higher protein diet. It just seems to work.

[Joshua Naterman]

It's a matter of total absorption over the course of the day. I have just zeroed in on the overall most efficient way to maximize that but it is by NO MEANS the only way! I think that the numbers are 7-10g per hour, and if you put that in perspective of a 16 hour day that's about 120-160g of protein per day that is actually capable of being absorbed and utilized for anabolic purposes. As long as you are reaching that saturation point you should be doing well.

[Joshua Naterman]

Josh,

I have been doing really well, thank you for asking; I followed a 6-week G-Bodies cycle earlier this year before returning to exclusively hand-balancing and other specific goals. I expect to return to Coach Sommer's programming later this year, though I'm considering how to balance it with my specific equilibre goals as well as my specific flexibility needs.

As for CP's recommended glutamine suggestion and its cost --- I moderate my Poliquin intake by always remembering that he is, in addition to a strength coach, a supplement salesman! "Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

Still, the deepening levels of PWO manipulation can be endlessly fascinating.

best,

jason

Nice, that's cool! I'm glad things are going well. I agree with your assessment of Poliquin's recommendations lol! However, I wouldn't be surprised if that DID deliver superior results in a given timeframe.

PWO nutrition is definitely a really neat area that always seems to have more to learn about.

[jhxkcd]

Hey Slizzardman,

I know you among others have mentioned that on off days you tend to restrict calories, but I couldn't find anything about what you recommend eating on off days. Could you go into some detail on that? I'd imagine liquid meals aren't as important as the lack of activity doesn't require "instant" nutrition. Even beyond that, though, I'm interested.

[Joshua Naterman]

I am actually getting virtually all of my protein through liquid means on off days. I sip my whey concoction! I also have lots of steamed veggies, a portion of which I am blending and drinking to get more of the nutrition. You don't have to go that far, obviously, but it's a good idea if you are hardcore enough!

I have been lazy, too much beer and too much IHOP lol! I'm holding steady where I'm at BF-wise but I should have been losing steadily so eh... you know? I'll be rolling into next may ultra lean no matter what, so I don't care if I don't hit my 8-9% goal this September. I'm actually enjoying things.

Even so, I've been eating fairly well for the most part! The whey and veggies works very well for me. I feel great all the time.

I like to have a breakfast of 4-6 eggs scrambled with a bunch of lightly steamed veggies! It's 4-500 calories MAX and there's so much food that even I have trouble finishing the plate! It frequently becomes two meals.

I also have 1-2 cups of homemade kefir every day, which translates to 1-2 TRILLION live cultures @ a cost of 50 cents per serving or so. Costs me less than 20 bucks a month to keep myself supplied and the health benefits are enormous.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Water kefir is great, too. My mother used to make it and it tasted really good. Way better than any soda! What do you think about the sugar that you have to use to grow it?

[Joshua Naterman]

It's fine, I mean you aren't going to be consuming enough to make any negative impact on your health if you're having it once a day or something. I don't know enough about that fermentation process to know quite what to think beyond the above statement!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Incidentally, and I don't know if this is unusual, but if I start a normal fat day like today with a high fat meal (40-55 grams) after going a day with only getting 40-50 grams or less, I get a really bad stomach ache. Horrible cramps... bad enough to make me sweat because of the pain and feel chills... And for more than two hours. I won't make that mistake thrice... lol

[Still Ringer]

Best written, most thorough, most logical thread about nutrition I've ever read. Bravo!