Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Joshua Naterman]

Donar: Excellent points. Total levels do matter quite a bit.

I don't have the time to dig up the links, but I will try to find that this weekend.

Ratios are still super important, if you don't have the omega 3 in you the omega 6 will still stimulate a much more inflammatory response. If you're popping 200-600mg of omega 3 capsules per beef meal (assuming there are no other omega 6 sources) depending on the cut, you should be fine.

The buckwheat has a good amount of protein for a grain (it's not actually technically a grain but a flower seed), and has a pretty good amino acid profile. Much more useful than wheat protein or other grain protein.

The omega thing is something I can't research right now, sleepytime! Here's a quick link for buckwheat. It gets a bit iffy towards the last half.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=11

[Mikko Saks]

Im kinda confused on how creatine really works. Ive been taking whey + crea both pre and post workout with some glucose, and it seems to speed up my recovery alot, and increases strenght better than what it did when i just took the whole 10g/day after the training session (still took the whey + glucose pre). What is the reason for this? I train in the mornings about an hour after i wake up, so i just take the whey/glucose/crea combo right after getting up.

Arent the muscles already supposed to be full of creatine when i wake up, so how come it seems to make a big difference when i take it pre workout? Basically im thinking that the creatine i take pre workout keeps filling my muscles with new creatine during the training and therefore maintaining strenght levels higher/longer?

Also what is the reason/mechanism creatine speeds up proteinsynthesis and therefore recovery when taken right after the workout compared to when taken just randomly lets say right before going to bed?

I hope you get the point, that message came out a bit messed up i think. Its just that im really eager to know the way this white stuff really works

[Joshua Naterman]

If you want creatine mechanisms, google is your friend. There's no reason for us to re-type what already exists. As for why the split dosage works better, all I can do is give my best guess...

Providing creatine along with the protein and glucose gives your body pretty much everything it needs to regenerate ATP, fuel your workout and repair your muscles. By doing that before AND after you are allowing your body to use external nutrients for repair during the workout instead of tearing up existing protein in the body to do the same things.

Have you noticed a difference with protein + glucose and a single dose of creatine compared with taking all three both before and after the workout or did you split the creatine dosage when you started using gluc+protein prre-WO?

[Falcon]

Since creatine was mentioned, I have a question for you, slizz.

I'm taking multivitamin with 50mg of added caffeine in the morning, and standard dose of 5g of creatine post workout, in the evening, does the caffeine cancel the creatine strenght effect, or I would need to take much higher dose of caffeine?

The thing is, I don't want to throw out multivitamin pills for another 2 months, nor the creatine, and I've just opened a new bottle of it, this sucks

[Mikko Saks]

Have you noticed a difference with protein + glucose and a single dose of creatine compared with taking all three both before and after the workout or did you split the creatine dosage when you started using gluc+protein prre-WO?

Yeah, i used to take whey + glucose preWO and 10g crea+whey+gluc postWO. But taking 5g of crea pre AND post workout made a big difference in my training and recovery.

Thnx for the reply, my friend.

[Joshua Naterman]

Have you noticed a difference with protein + glucose and a single dose of creatine compared with taking all three both before and after the workout or did you split the creatine dosage when you started using gluc+protein prre-WO?

Yeah, i used to take whey + glucose preWO and 10g crea+whey+gluc postWO. But taking 5g of crea pre AND post workout made a big difference in my training and recovery.

Thnx for the reply, my friend.

No problem, thank YOU for the information!

[Joshua Naterman]

Since creatine was mentioned, I have a question for you, slizz.

I'm taking multivitamin with 50mg of added caffeine in the morning, and standard dose of 5g of creatine post workout, in the evening, does the caffeine cancel the creatine strength effect, or I would need to take much higher dose of caffeine?

The thing is, I don't want to throw out multivitamin pills for another 2 months, nor the creatine, and I've just opened a new bottle of it, this sucks

No, I don't think you need to worry. The real issue is taking them at the same time, and that may not be an issue at all.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi5.htm

Read and see. This is an old article, but has some outstanding information in it about how to get the most out of your creatine.

It appears that you need 3 cups of coffee per day on a consistent basis to negate your creatine, and since you're getting about half a cup once a day I don't think you need to go crazy over this. I could be wrong, but as long as you're doing your part to keep things under control you should be ok.

[polmod]

thanks a lot slizzardman its been a very instructive post

[Joshua Naterman]

Keep in mind that the whole creatine/caffeine thing refers purely to any short-term power increase you may get from creatine supplementation. Caffeine does not interfere with creatine's effect on protein synthesis, so you should still gain strength and muscle faster when you use it consistently over time.

[Falcon]

My food plan for next few months, I still will be making some changes to it, but this is more or less IT:

17 years old, approx. 179cm, 63kg as of today, loaded on creatine. Goals: Myofibrillar hyperthrophy gain, maximal strenght gain.

Pre Workout Meal: Rice with tuna - 60g carbs, 25g protein, 350 calories

Pre Workout Shake: 200ml fullfat milk, 10g whey - 16g protein, 8g carbs, 6g fat, 150 calories

Workout Shake: 10g whey, 20g glucose, 300ml fullfat milk - 19g protein, 36g carbs, 9g fat, 300 calories

Post Workout Shake: 15-20g whey, 40g glucose, 5g creatine - 20g protein, 40g carbs, 220 calories

Second Shake: 300ml fullfat milk, 15g whey, 10g maltodextrin, 250 calories

Post Workout Meal: 6-7 eggs, sometimes meat, vegetables - 45g protein, 350 calories, without vegetables

eating this meal till 30minutes before sleep.

~Overall, without pre workout meal: 120g of protein, 60g of glucose, 20g malto, ~some lactose.

~1750 calories without veggies and ocassional meat, hopefully it's enough

[MH87]

double post.

[MH87]

Wow... I suggest you take your 1750 kcal, and double that...

Also looks like you are getting a lot of your protein from supplements.. you should really be eating at least 500 grams of meat/fish a day if you want to support muscle growth.

[Falcon]

Wow... I suggest you take your 1750 kcal, and double that...

Also looks like you are getting a lot of your protein from supplements.. you should really be eating at least 500 grams of meat/fish a day if you want to support muscle growth.

Getting protein from supps isn't really an issue I think, whey has a good AA profile, and eating meat everyday, man, that would be expensive!

1750 calories are only in my pre/workout/post workout, that means my pre workout meal till my dinner, and I think it's more like 2000 calories, if I would count the tons of vegetables I have another 1000 - 1500 calories in my breakfast, lunch, and school snack.

[MH87]

Oh ok! I see. I also totally misunderstood your post... My bad.. Looks decent then.. I seriously thought you were only eating like 1700 ish kcal a day

[Joshua Naterman]

Wow... I suggest you take your 1750 kcal, and double that...

Also looks like you are getting a lot of your protein from supplements.. you should really be eating at least 500 grams of meat/fish a day if you want to support muscle growth.

Protein from whey is superior to the beef or fish in terms of supporting protein synthesis in the body. The only thing you'd be missing is omega 3, which you can get from pills, and vitamins A and E, which should be in your multivitamin AND in foods you eat like sweet potatoes or greens. B vitamins are really only found in sufficient quantities in organ meats like liver, but that's another great reason to take your multi.

Meat is great, and I love it, but by no means is meat necessary. I hope I don't come across as being crazy, but I have made many of my best gains when a large portion of my protein came from supplements, and sometimes all of it. Higher BEV = better results, can't argue that. It also saves tons of money! The really important thing is to have lots of healthy veggies as the major constituent of your diet and to get rid of the processed carbs. It's unbelievable how much that helps.

Whole food is great, but live within your budget... be smart and cover your bases if you are getting most of your protein from supplements. Take smaller doses more often, take a multi, and have some carbs with the protein. 1g carbs for every 3g protein will help prevent the majority of loss to gluconeogenesis.

[Rafael David]

Protein from whey is superior to the beef or fish in terms of supporting protein synthesis in the body. The only thing you'd be missing is omega 3, which you can get from pills, and vitamins A and E, which should be in your multivitamin AND in foods you eat like sweet potatoes or greens. B vitamins are really only found in sufficient quantities in organ meats like liver, but that's another great reason to take your multi.

Meat is great, and I love it, but by no means is meat necessary. I hope I don't come across as being crazy, but I have made many of my best gains when a large portion of my protein came from supplements, and sometimes all of it. Higher BEV = better results, can't argue that. It also saves tons of money! The really important thing is to have lots of healthy veggies as the major constituent of your diet and to get rid of the processed carbs. It's unbelievable how much that helps.

Whole food is great, but live within your budget... be smart and cover your bases if you are getting most of your protein from supplements. Take smaller doses more often, take a multi, and have some carbs with the protein. 1g carbs for every 3g protein will help prevent the majority of loss to gluconeogenesis.

yeah!

[Rafael David]

Hey Slizz, cinnamon is also good during the workout? Is good have a pinch in every meal? :?

[Razz]

Cinnamon has some toxins so don't overdose. Use it generously if it fits the meal, but don't chug it down like it's miracle powder.

[Rafael David]

Ah ok, thanks Razz! This toxin, the coumarin, is found in cassia cinnamon. But I use cinnamon extract, so don't have this toxin.

http://www.ehow.com/how_7458697_remove- ... namon.html

[Falcon]

Slizz, would split up post workout meal?

Look, I do this, I finish my workout, and then I have 2 shakes, and then a meal, I have about 1:30 - 1:45 hour before sleep time, sometimes I have to eat my meal, and hit the pillow in 5 minutes, after eating heavy meal like that is rather... uncomfortable.

Should I experiment with splitting the post workout meal into night after workout meal, and another meal in the morning? Let's say I would eat 60% of the post workout meal in the evening, and 40% in the morning. Or do I have to have all of the calories and nutrients exactly after the workout? I just want to make sure if this isn't total nonsense

[Joshua Naterman]

Maybe just have less food at your PWO meal if your sleep is being compromised... That's a tough one and not familiar to me, I always sleep great after a big meal. Seriously though, less whole food and more slow protein in the second PWO shake will probably be your best solution.

[Falcon]

I do not know as well. I will educate myself about this and experiment. I will post the result for sure, but it's not gonna be anytime soon, too much other stuff with school going on, next weekend at earliest.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

How can I combine a very low kcal (30-40% total kcal) day per week, IF, and high frequency training?

Right now, I'm doing a high frequency routine for vertical pulling and horizontal pushing 4-6 days a week. On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I do a lower body + upper body session. I'll eventually work up to 6 days a week and then maybe two sessions a day 2 times a week.

I'm only doing one session a day right now, so it's fairly easy to manage IF, but what can I do once I get to two sessions a day on some days?

Is 30-40% kcal 1-2 days a week not possible for HFT? :/

I was reading these articles by Chad Waterbury:

1) http://chadwaterbury.com/waterbury-diet-for-fat-loss/

2) http://chadwaterbury.com/waterbury-diet ... cle+Growth

What do you think? I definitely want to do HFT, but I still haven't figured out how to do an effective diet with it without eating all the time.

[Larry Roseman]

How can I combine a very low kcal (30-40% total kcal) day per week, IF, and high frequency training?

Right now, I'm doing a high frequency routine for vertical pulling and horizontal pushing 4-6 days a week. On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I do a lower body + upper body session. I'll eventually work up to 6 days a week and then maybe two sessions a day 2 times a week.

I'm only doing one session a day right now, so it's fairly easy to manage IF, but what can I do once I get to two sessions a day on some days?

Is 30-40% kcal 1-2 days a week not possible for HFT? :/

I was reading these articles by Chad Waterbury:

1) http://chadwaterbury.com/waterbury-diet-for-fat-loss/

2) http://chadwaterbury.com/waterbury-diet ... cle+Growth

What do you think? I definitely want to do HFT, but I still haven't figured out how to do an effective diet with it without eating all the time.

From what I recall you basically wanted to recomp, but use IF. I personally don't see how A LOT of volume works well on the down days either. You should cut back volume and up the intensity and just do two sets max on down days. It may not be the exact definition of HFT - but it's a comprimise ito me to do it and IF together anyway.

Another option is to do a light cut using IF and a equiv bulk using HFT. It might take a little longer but you might get more out of it at the same time.

Martin started writing on the subject. http://www.leangains.com/2009/09/making ... -work.html

There was supposed to be a part 2 but not seeing it.

This is also going to expand your mind on the subject. http://freetheanimal.com/2010/11/leanga ... roach.html. Martin in it is quoted, "For example, I’ve experimented with higher frequency training where sets were not taken to failure every session. However, that was in the context of gaining. On a diet, hard and heavy is the right way to go. Training volume should be low, effort high."

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hey, Fin!

I don't really look to MB for training advice, but I think what you suggest is a good idea.

I think I'll split the next 4.5 months into three separate sections. Loosely like this:

Phase 1 - 6 weeks (cut down phase)

* High frequency training for neck and lower legs (straight leg bounces,calf raises, shin raises, neck flexions, next extensions)

* 3x/week strength training focusing on maximal strength for upper body and lower body

* PNF, AIS, and tons of passive stretching (6 hours side split weekly as an experiments

* 2x/week martial arts bag interval drills for cardio

* IF on cardio days

* protein feeds on heavy training days

* one day a week at 30-40% total kcal - no fat

Phase 2 - 6 weeks long (lean gains phase)

* High frequency training for neck and lower legs (straight leg bounces,calf raises, shin raises, neck flexions, next extensions)

* High frequency training for pushing and pulling

* 3x/week heavier training sessions with slight higher rep for lower body but mostly still close maximal strength work

* 1-2x/week martial arts bag interval drills for cardio

* 1 hour per week stretching maintenance

* super light swimming 1-3 hours per week (t

* protein feeds on heavy training days

* high fat, low carbs (only from vegetables), high protein

Phase 3 - 6 weeks long (maximal effort for full body and tons of dynamic effort)

* WOD-like training routine - 2x/week upper body, 2x/week lower body (1 each for maximal strength and 1 each for dynamic strength)

* Tons of deep isometrics for increasing muscular density

* Tons of martial arts drill intervals and sports specific training

* Tons of agility and footwork drills as well as basic aerial tricks

* high fat, high protein, and medium carb (tons of vegetables)

Then I guess I'd repeat the process after refining it... What do you think?