Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Larry Roseman]

Hey, Fin!

I don't really look to MB for training advice, but I think what you suggest is a good idea.

I think I'll split the next 4.5 months into three separate sections. Loosely like this:

Phase 1 - 6 weeks (cut down phase)

* High frequency training for neck and lower legs (straight leg bounces,calf raises, shin raises, neck flexions, next extensions)

* 3x/week strength training focusing on maximal strength for upper body and lower body

* PNF, AIS, and tons of passive stretching (6 hours side split weekly as an experiments

* 2x/week martial arts bag interval drills for cardio

* IF on cardio days

* protein feeds on heavy training days

* one day a week at 30-40% total kcal - no fat

Phase 2 - 6 weeks long (lean gains phase)

* High frequency training for neck and lower legs (straight leg bounces,calf raises, shin raises, neck flexions, next extensions)

* High frequency training for pushing and pulling

* 3x/week heavier training sessions with slight higher rep for lower body but mostly still close maximal strength work

* 1-2x/week martial arts bag interval drills for cardio

* 1 hour per week stretching maintenance

* super light swimming 1-3 hours per week (t

* protein feeds on heavy training days

* high fat, low carbs (only from vegetables), high protein

Phase 3 - 6 weeks long (maximal effort for full body and tons of dynamic effort)

* WOD-like training routine - 2x/week upper body, 2x/week lower body (1 each for maximal strength and 1 each for dynamic strength)

* Tons of deep isometrics for increasing muscular density

* Tons of martial arts drill intervals and sports specific training

* Tons of agility and footwork drills as well as basic aerial tricks

* high fat, high protein, and medium carb (tons of vegetables)

Then I guess I'd repeat the process after refining it... What do you think?

Honestly speaking I'm out of my depth to comment on it but I will try. Just be sure that you're creating enough of a weekly caloric deficit (including workout energy expended) to make the impact. And that you're not working out "too much" given that deficit. The idea of the cut it to cut fat and maintain muscle. 2x week may be enough heavy training. I'd be careful with the HFT during a cut the same was as during IF. More carbs on heavy weights days are generally recommended.

In phase ii, just make sure you're eating enough to actually put on muscle given the pretty heavy caloric expenditure.

Make sure you get enough carbs too since you don't want to divert protein destined for muscle to gluconeogenesis instead.

In phase III - no idea .

It sounds fun. Are you doing any GB as part of the push/pull or just weights?

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Honestly speaking I'm out of my depth to comment on it but I will try. Just be sure that you're creating enough of a weekly caloric deficit (including workout energy expended) to make the impact. And that you're not working out "too much" given that deficit. The idea of the cut it to cut fat and maintain muscle. 2x week may be enough heavy training. I'd be careful with the HFT during a cut the same was as during IF. More carbs on heavy weights days are generally recommended.

In phase ii, just make sure you're eating enough to actually put on muscle given the pretty heavy caloric expenditure.

Make sure you get enough carbs too since you don't want to divert protein destined for muscle to gluconeogenesis instead.

In phase III - no idea .

It sounds fun. Are you doing any GB as part of the push/pull or just weights?

Good points. Those are definitely things I need to remember. The HFT during the cut is not really high volume, very light stuff all-in-all. I think it will be fine. I will think about switching the strength training sessions in Phase 1 to heavy M and F and light on W.

My maintenance kcal is about 2400 I think, so I'll get 2300 on kcal on heavy days and about 2000 on rest days during the cut phase... I think that will be close enough.

As the GB and weights, I'll just do chins, pull ups, push ups (lean, elevated feet, with weighted vest), dips, and heavy decline bicep curls (for slight simulation of BL).

Thank you, Fin

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hey, Fin, regarding maximal strength training, what do you think is more suitable for me: 6 x 3 + 3 minute rest or 5/3/1 ?

Joe DeFranco likes 6 x 3 a lot, but if I have 3 minutes minimum rest between sets, that's at least 18 minutes rest ... Still, it would only be about 36-40 minutes for my two maximal strength exercises of that day (one max strength lower body session per week). Lol

What do you think?

Nevermind 6 x 3 is far easier to program so I'm going to do it.

[Robert Stejskal]

Do most (or any) of you really eat this carefully in real life? This seems very obsessive.

And what is the main benefit to strictly eating X and Y precisely Z minutes pre / during / post workout? Are you trying for better recovery (and performance)? Hypertrophy?

Sorry, but I just don't see the benefit to being this obsessive about something that seems pretty simple. As a former fairly serious long distance runner I simply had my training set at regular times and recovered / prepared for the next days (or sometimes evenings) run. But whether I ate pasta or rice or whey protein (yuck) didn't really matter much to me. So long as I was ready to bang out the miles when needed and my pace, that's all that really mattered.

So seriously, what is the benefit to being as strict as many of you seem in this thread (or does this not reflect reality? Is it only a discussion?)?

[Larry Roseman]

Do most (or any) of you really eat this carefully in real life? This seems very obsessive.

And what is the main benefit to strictly eating X and Y precisely Z minutes pre / during / post workout? Are you trying for better recovery (and performance)? Hypertrophy?

Sorry, but I just don't see the benefit to being this obsessive about something that seems pretty simple. As a former fairly serious long distance runner I simply had my training set at regular times and recovered / prepared for the next days (or sometimes evenings) run. But whether I ate pasta or rice or whey protein (yuck) didn't really matter much to me. So long as I was ready to bang out the miles when needed and my pace, that's all that really mattered.

So seriously, what is the benefit to being as strict as many of you seem in this thread (or does this not reflect reality? Is it only a discussion?)?

That is a really good question! Pre and post workout nutrition are important in terms of having ability the to perform at your best, recover quickly and grow muscle and strength. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Endurance althletes yeah pretty much just eat enough carbs, drink enough water and run. I suppose carb depletion and loading could be viewed as being somewhat complex. But strength althetes have to be more concerned with protein turnover since strength training is going to be both highly catabolic and anabolic. Most of the complexity surrounds that, and trying to ensure that muscle isnt lost and ideally gained. Hypertrophy is not always desired but it is a frequent goal. Likewise bf % and fat loss are more pressing issues for strength althletes, as it's a given for endurance athletes.

But I doubt that most super high level competitors are as obsessive as some posts here may imply. It's just that they have other things going for them. Those who are building up to high levels seek to maximise all possible factors, and eek out even the smallest advantage. Attention to the finer points probably doesn't hurt and may help, although shouldn't detract from the main points, and focusing on training, IMO. If it does then just ignore them.

[Joshua Naterman]

Do most (or any) of you really eat this carefully in real life? This seems very obsessive.

And what is the main benefit to strictly eating X and Y precisely Z minutes pre / during / post workout? Are you trying for better recovery (and performance)? Hypertrophy?

Sorry, but I just don't see the benefit to being this obsessive about something that seems pretty simple. As a former fairly serious long distance runner I simply had my training set at regular times and recovered / prepared for the next days (or sometimes evenings) run. But whether I ate pasta or rice or whey protein (yuck) didn't really matter much to me. So long as I was ready to bang out the miles when needed and my pace, that's all that really mattered.

So seriously, what is the benefit to being as strict as many of you seem in this thread (or does this not reflect reality? Is it only a discussion?)?

That is a really good question! Pre and post workout nutrition are important in terms of having ability the to perform at your best, recover quickly and grow muscle and strength. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Endurance althletes yeah pretty much just eat enough carbs, drink enough water and run. I suppose carb depletion and loading could be viewed as being somewhat complex. But strength althetes have to be more concerned with protein turnover since strength training is going to be both highly catabolic and anabolic. Most of the complexity surrounds that, and trying to ensure that muscle isnt lost and ideally gained. Hypertrophy is not always desired but it is a frequent goal. Likewise bf % and fat loss are more pressing issues for strength althletes, as it's a given for endurance athletes.

But I doubt that most super high level competitors are as obsessive as some posts here may imply. It's just that they have other things going for them. Those who are building up to high levels seek to maximise all possible factors, and eek out even the smallest advantage. Attention to the finer points probably doesn't hurt and may help, although shouldn't detract from the main points, and focusing on training, IMO. If it does then just ignore them.

Believe it or not, a true endurance athlete will benefit as much or more from the diluted protein solution that I suggest drinking throughout the day than we will. By true endurance athlete I mean half marathons or more, or the equivalent in biking or swimming... the 45-60 minute + competitive time range. The extreme amount of work causes far more damage and catabolism than our strength work does and thus these athletes are actually recommended to take in slightly more protein than bodybuilders and strength athletes, at an even 2g per kg BW. Spreading the protein evenly will make an enormous difference in the ability of the athletes to stay in peak condition and avoid training injuries or unnecessary slumps.

As for the specific meal plan discussed, believe it or not people thrive on structure. Not only is it a seriously optimized plan that takes advantage of the processes that are upregulated through mechanical stimulation (exercise) but more importantly it is a plan. It is reasonable, fairly easy to follow, and not expensive or over-indulgent. The inherently more rigid structure tends to help people stick to it, just as taking diet pills tends to help people eat cleaner. It's not in the pill, it's the mental status of "I'm serious enough to take this pill, and this costs money, so I should make the most of it by getting my diet right." Same as the whole P90X thing, they spell out quite clearly that you will not get the results you want if you don't eat as they recommend.

The ironic part is that the dietary improvements, in both of the latter cases, are what drive the majority of the improvements people see. Spending the money, time, and energy that it takes to do the exercise and buy the pill or program motivates them to stick with their diet if that's what the bottle or workout DVD recommends.

By the same token, this plan accomplishes the basics:

Have protein and carbs before, during, and after your workout and set it up so that you have a smooth transition to solid foods.

That's it. One line of text. However, if that was all I said do you think people could set it up? Do you think they could or would follow it? Most can or will not, for whatever the reason. Human psychology is enough to drive anyone mad, but it is what it is. The plan makes compliance easier than the basic concept does, and works significantly better than other methods of workout nutrition (unless they are basically the same thing, in which case they will of course work wonderfully as well).

There are tons of people who have followed this plan and seen remarkable improvements. To my knowledge there is not one person who has not had good results. Please, speak up if you honestly have followed this and have not had excellent results. I don't think anyone will, because this plan addresses the basic physiological nutritional needs our bodies have.

Possible exceptions may be people who are just doing way too much work or are simply not eating anything that qualifies as food (by my definition, which is basically fruits, veggies and meat) the rest of the day.

[Larry Roseman]

Believe it or not, a true endurance athlete will benefit as much or more from the diluted protein solution that I suggest drinking throughout the day than we will. By true endurance athlete I mean half marathons or more, or the equivalent in biking or swimming... the 45-60 minute + competitive time range. The extreme amount of work causes far more damage and catabolism than our strength work does and thus these athletes are actually recommended to take in slightly more protein than bodybuilders and strength athletes, at an even 2g per kg BW. Spreading the protein evenly will make an enormous difference in the ability of the athletes to stay in peak condition and avoid training injuries or unnecessary slumps.

I should have added that my point of view isn't an "offical" one and that

I am looking forward to Slizzardman's reply, which I was. That is a given

I agree that there is a need for protein for endurance athletes, but typically

it's acheived thorough real food. The recommendation for endurance athletes I'm familar with

is 1.1g / kg which for most enduros (who tend to be lighter) amounts to no more than 80g a day.

So protein supplementation isn't usually needed. Protein breakdown should not be a big issue unless fat/carb stores are

low, and that is going to take A LOT of aerobic endurance exercise, like hours. If it's high intensity stuff,

then it's more catabolic initially though it can also stimulate growth later, and it is shorter duration.

But strength athletes are recommended 1.3g/kg and it can go higher of course.

more doesn't hurt up to a point. We all are familar with the 1g/lb (2.2g/kg)

recommendation.

Have protein and carbs before, during, and after your workout and set it up so that you have a smooth transition to solid foods.

I eat like an hour before strength workouts and within an hour after. That's another strategy if you don't want to worry about supplementation, or eating protein during workouts. I can't say it is perfect but it also works. The protein eaten before is released during and after so additional amino acid needs are met by that, instead of breaking down muscle.

I do really agree with your psychological analysis of structure aiding conformance. Excellente!

Regarding the orignal poster of the question. what are your goals? Is it strength? Are you still running?

[Joshua Naterman]

That is very true. Just whole food works to a point.

The advantage of the liquid whey is that you can control the dosages much more precisely. It doesn't require much work to digest so the decreased blood flow to the stomach during exercise won't cause problems with maintaining optimal amino acid levels in the blood. The other issue is protein quality... whey is simply more useful on a gram-to-gram basis compared with any other protein. As far as whole foods go, it's 1.5-3x as good, depending on the food sources. So from an efficiency standpoint you need far less protein to get the same anabolic effect, whereas the same amount of protein gives a far greater anabolic effect when compared to whole food sources. Once you get into the whole process of transanimation and protein turnover the overall systemic effects are usually not quite that pronounced, but you can certainly get 1.5x the results in terms of muscle growth for a given amount of protein in grams when comparing the whey to whole foods.

Having said that, as long as what you are doing satisfies your needs keep it up!

[Robert Stejskal]

I think its great that you are so careful with your diet and nutrition. I'm sure you will reap the rewards of your careful attention to detail.

[V4l]

Thanks a lot for this article slizz.

I was wondering what you think about almond ? I just bought some almond raw powder to use in my shake. What do you think about that ? Moreover I can't find if raw almonds are SCT, MCT or LCT ? Which is quite linked to my last question. Adding like 10g of almond powder in a pre/postWO (with whey for preWO shake and whey+cinnamon for postWO shake) would be good ?

[ChocoGymnast]

I'd just like to give one more shoutout to Slizzardman for this article. It is by far some of the most important information on nutrition I have ever read. It's basic, it's simple, and it makes sense. Thank you for sharing this man

[Quick Start Test Smith]

It's also very interesting to see Sliz's nutrition knowledge develop from what is described in the original post to what he describes in his last post. A very nice historical document this is. 8)

[kwesty92]

Came back to this thread after reading it a while ago and am loving all the info, thank you so much!

Just playing devil's advocate here, how would one defend this system against claims that:

-carbs pre workout will raise insulin such that later in the workout nutrition process insulin surges from carbs will be less potent for muscle building?

-pre/during workout nutrition will force the digestive system to use a significant amount of energy, thereby detracting from the quality of the workout?

[Joshua Naterman]

Came back to this thread after reading it a while ago and am loving all the info, thank you so much!

Just playing devil's advocate here, how would one defend this system against claims that:

-carbs pre workout will raise insulin such that later in the workout nutrition process insulin surges from carbs will be less potent for muscle building?

-pre/during workout nutrition will force the digestive system to use a significant amount of energy, thereby detracting from the quality of the workout?

Neither happens.

Exercise allows cells to use glucose without insulin.

As for digestion, that is why I recommend a glucose and whey protein mixture. Simply does not require a huge amount of bodily resources in terms of blood flow to process. Also, blood flow during a workout is 3-4x normal even with a moderate intensity, so even though internal organs go from 80% to 20% of total blood circulation, they still receive very nearly the same amount of blood and energy. There is no downside.

[Blairbob]

Interesting, Josh. Thanks for that tidbit in the last post regarding blood flow.

[Joshua Naterman]

No problem. The main concern is that people are good at what they are used to. If you aren't used to working out with food in your stomach, it is a good idea to slowly acclimate to it. Eat just a little, and over the course of 3-4 weeks get used to having a full meal around an hour before you work out. Make sure the carbs are low glycemic.

[kwesty92]

So would I be correct in saying that high glycemic carbs in the 1 hr. preworkout meal would give you energy but then cause you to "bonk" before the workout starts, but in the 20 mins preworkout shake or afterwards that no longer becomes a concern because you continually supply carbohydrates for energy?

[Joshua Naterman]

So would I be correct in saying that high glycemic carbs in the 1 hr. preworkout meal would give you energy but then cause you to "bonk" before the workout starts, but in the 20 mins preworkout shake or afterwards that no longer becomes a concern because you continually supply carbohydrates for energy?

Yes to the first part, but in my personal experience you want to already be working out when that glucose starts absorbing, and that happens in about 10 minutes. You don't want much going in until you're beginning your warm up.

That means you either use a dilute solution or you wait until 10 minutes or less pre-workout to have the higher glucose solution or whatever your source of fast carbs is.

[kwesty92]

Sorry to keep bothering you Josh, but had one more question:

Have you seen any problems with bloating from all the dextrose, or is this plan somehow structured to avoid that?

[Joshua Naterman]

Sorry to keep bothering you Josh, but had one more question:

Have you seen any problems with bloating from all the dextrose, or is this plan somehow structured to avoid that?

None whatsoever. You're fine all the way up to 60g per liter, and since you should be drinking that much per hour anyways you won't have any problems. It has been sufficient for me, but if you're worried you can use longer chain dextrins like the endurance goop... gets expensive though. I'd stick with the dextrose.

[Martin de Jesus Ponce Robaldino]

Excelent post Joshua!

After reading this, personally i've been doing the folllowing

1 Hour before:

100gr of boiled rice + 1 can of tuna+ 20 gr of almonds

10-15 min before:

20 gr whey+ 15gr dextrose + 5 gr creatine + 1 gr of vit C

During the workout:

sipping 1 liter of water with 20gr of whey

usually my workouts last 2-2.5 hours (including warmup and cool down)

Inmediatly finishing workout and before stretching:

20 grams of whey+ 1 gr of vit c + 45 gr of corn flakes (is the only available thing i have in that moment)

30 mins later:

banana+ 10-15 gr of whey

1.5 hr later

a combination of solid food and liquid.

Lately i've been working out twice a day for 3-4 days a week... and i've been feeling great, having medium-high carbs, medium-low fats and lots of protein. Getting something like 4000-4500 cal on training days

In non-training days i usually have 2500-3000 cal with trying to have less than 80gr of CH, getting high protein and high fat (specially saturated and monosaturated), and sometimes only having one meal in the morning and fasting the rest of the day...

I've been feeling good in this way, now i need to analyze my strength gains over the time. Hope this work for getting lots stronger..

I have one question Josh: If it's suppossed that LCT slow down digestion, and if on training days i have one meal with high carbs, high protein, and medium LCT, does it slows down digestion, or it will be directly turned into addiposse tissue??

Thanks again for the post!

[Andrew Long]

hej,

I just have to say thank you slizzardman dear god thank you! This thread has made an enormous difference with my training and body composition! I am not so strict with it atm but just something so simple as eating lots of veggies and protein in the few hours afterwards with the protein and carbs right before and during has made an immense difference! a few days ago I did my work out and had my meal a couple hours before which was a MASSIVE salad with some tuna and a bit of chicken then after the work out I didnt have a lot just some nuts and a few meatballs. next day I was sore and tired and didnt feel ready to work out for a couple days. 3 days later same work out as always with an upgrade of one of the exercises followed the post had some grapes and during and immediately after watermelon grapes followed by several meals of salmon and beef mixed with about a kilo of veggies over the hours afterwards had a few nuts too ( basically a lot of protein and veggies and fruits amounting to a lot of calories) i slept like a baby woke up the next day had lots of energy and felt good to go again mild soreness i noticed later on in the day but only barely and thats due to the upgrade in one of the exercises i think.

In short, the work out days where I follow this nutritional advice i fell great and the days I dont follow it I really notice the difference. Also since starting to follow this advice even if I am only doing it like 70% I have noticed my body fat dropping my muscles increasing in size like crazy and I feel better without even counting calories really =D

so once again thank you =D

[Joshua Naterman]

You're the man! Keep up the good work! Glad to have helped

[Nic Branson]

Heed the wisdom of Mr. Joshua

[Darius Sohei]

hmmm, while the post sounds good, and i believe it has given the OP great benefits - i feel like the info is very dated and only for those with "iron stomachs". many of the food recommendations would make me ill (raw veggies, sweet potatoes, heavy cream, the pufa fats - avocado, chicken, etc), but i understand that's also my personal genetics influencing things. also, i don't think the whole fat-adapted thing is "real" in the sense that when i was low carb for over 6 months, i never got "fat-adapted" whatsoever, i was wolfing down coconut oil and grass fed meat... it never "worked", it just made me weak and depressed.

the post is interesting, but i don't see how it is do-able for me.