Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[bombadil]

There is a small body of research suggesting that the "best" time of day to train is around 11-13 hours after you wake up, but there is also research that suggests your body will adjust its rhythms to your workout time if you keep it very consistent even if it is not in that "11-13 hours after wake-up" range.

 

I have definitely found that for my workouts to be the absolute best, I do need to be awake for a few hours first. Having said that, the best time to work out is when the workout time-slot fits your personal schedule. In other words, just get the work in and things will be ok.

Cool, this makes a lot of sense.  Thanks.  

 

I prefer to workout at 2pm, but have been holding off till 4/5...  

[James Janssen]

This I saw today. I know that reaching your total macro goals at the end of the day is more important than nutrient timing. I am still interested in your thoughts though.

Also when it comes to eating optimal: 'skewing' protein intake towards around the workouts, is the only skewing that is preferable right?

Kind of weird formulation of the question, but I hope you get it.

[Joshua Naterman]

This I saw today. I know that reaching your total macro goals at the end of the day is more important than nutrient timing. I am still interested in your thoughts though.

Also when it comes to eating optimal: 'skewing' protein intake towards around the workouts, is the only skewing that is preferable right?

Kind of weird formulation of the question, but I hope you get it.

Whatever that was, 

 

This I saw today. I know that reaching your total macro goals at the end of the day is more important than nutrient timing. I am still interested in your thoughts though.

Also when it comes to eating optimal: 'skewing' protein intake towards around the workouts, is the only skewing that is preferable right?

Kind of weird formulation of the question, but I hope you get it.

Knowledge can be a dangerous thing, because not all knowledge rings true. I clicked your link, but there was no download. I have no idea what you were reading.

 

It is absolutely important to hit your macro goals at the end of the day, but it is also very important to time them appropriately. Nutrient timing, as it seems like you probably understand, is not just about when but also how much and what type.

 

For example, whey protein only raises amino acid levels in the blood for about 90 minutes (with peak levels at the 45-60 minute mark), passes through the gut extremely quickly, and no matter what kind of protein you take there is an inherent limitation to how much you can absorb per hour. The number is around 10.7g per hour.

 

The reason we still recommend getting 30g at once, even though it's not going to last 3 hours, is simply that your body is actually capable of cherry-picking the amino acids that it cannot make by itself, which we call essential amino acids (EAA for short). It takes 30g of whey (rounded up from 28g), to get nearly 3g of leucine. Leucine is the only amino acid that turns on the machinery that makes more muscle protein. So, when our bodies have a chance to get some leucine they do so, even at the expense of letting other amino acids (including other EAA) get pooped out.

 

That is nutrient timing, and it is very important. It is MORE important for older folks than it is for the young, but it is important and meaningful for all of us.

 

 

As for stacking your protein around the workout, you really want to stack carbohydrates and calories around the workout as well. The trick to maximizing success is just consuming what you burn! In general, you're going to need 4-5 METs worth of energy for a 30 minute Foundation workout, but it doesn't take a scientific study to tell us that Week 4 is going to require less energy than Week 11. So for Week 4 you might try just having 3 METs worth of energy, but for Week 5 you might (probably WILL) feel better when you eat more like 5-6 METs worth of energy.

 

A MET is just a fancy way for saying "the amount of energy you burn, per hour, when you aren't working out or recovering from a workout." For me, it's around 130 calories per hour. If I'm on Week 4, I might eat a 400-ish calorie meal after my workout. That would probably have 70g of carbs (280 kcal), 30-40g of protein (another 90-120 kcal) and whatever fat is in the milk that I tend to drink PWO.

 

However, on Week 11 I'm going to need a lot more than that: probably around 800-900 kcal. Keep in mind that I am 220-odd pounds at 11-12% body fat. Maybe lower. That's a lot of muscle to feed. In this case, I'm not just going to double week 4's PWO meal and eat it all at once, but I probably WILL eat the same thing twice, with the second meal being eaten as soon as I feel hungry again. For me, this tends to be around 60-90 minutes. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't get hungry again for 3-4 hours.

 

This strategy helps maximize the amount of those meals that I can absorb, while giving my body the calories and carbs it wants and needs at a time when they will be partitioned towards lean tissue instead of excessive fat tissue.

 

The exact numbers should always be modified to make you feel the best, and you may find that they change over time. I think that it is fair to say that as you get stronger you are going to be doing more work in the same amount of time, because the exercises get harder, and that will probably mean that you are hungrier after a week 11 workout in 2015 than you will be at your next week 11 workout in the next few weeks or months.

 

Once you've got things dialed in, it is often a good idea to listen to your body for fine-tuning.

[Keilani Gutierrez]

glad to see you around, Josh  

 

thanks for the insight 

[James Janssen]

Apparently the pdf file appears to have been deleted. 
The link was a new study published, abstract here: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2014/01/28/jn.113.185280.abstract

While it didn't really relate to my original question, I thought it might have been an interesting read. 

It's basically about comparing 3 meals/day with 30g of protein each meal (even protein distribution) vs. the typical diet skewing protein towards the dinner and then looking at what diet maximizes protein synthesis in a 24h timeframe. I dare not say that the outcome is obvious, since that's a naughty word in science, but I do think it. Note that the participants were physically active, but not athletically trained. (If you want to read the whole study shoot me a PM)

To merge that with your posts: it comes down to eating balanced meals with a proper ratio of carbs/fats/protein (30g) and veggies throughout the day, and around the workout us foundation people should follow your post above and the peri workout nutrition post(s). 

Thanks for your posts, I always enjoy reading them 

[Joshua Naterman]

Apparently the pdf file appears to have been deleted. 

The link was a new study published, abstract here: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2014/01/28/jn.113.185280.abstract

While it didn't really relate to my original question, I thought it might have been an interesting read. 

It's basically about comparing 3 meals/day with 30g of protein each meal (even protein distribution) vs. the typical diet skewing protein towards the dinner and then looking at what diet maximizes protein synthesis in a 24h timeframe. I dare not say that the outcome is obvious, since that's a naughty word in science, but I do think it. Note that the participants were physically active, but not athletically trained. (If you want to read the whole study shoot me a PM)

To merge that with your posts: it comes down to eating balanced meals with a proper ratio of carbs/fats/protein (30g) and veggies throughout the day, and around the workout us foundation people should follow your post above and the peri workout nutrition post(s). 

Thanks for your posts, I always enjoy reading them 

Glad you enjoy my posts! I checked out the abstract, might download it at school. If I can't, I will try to let you know.

 

It's always good to see yet another study show us what we know to be true

[Oz Pariser]

I had a couple of questions if someone wouldn't mind giving me some input. Are you supposed to put salt in your water all day long? Or only a couple of times a day?

And what sort of shake would you recommend for a BJJ rolling session, which can be fairly intense cardio? Same as a session of Foundation?

[Joshua Naterman]

I had a couple of questions if someone wouldn't mind giving me some input. Are you supposed to put salt in your water all day long? Or only a couple of times a day?

And what sort of shake would you recommend for a BJJ rolling session, which can be fairly intense cardio? Same as a session of Foundation?

In my opinion the answer to this question depends entirely on how much salt you get throughout the day. I would definitely intentionally salt water that will be consumed during physical activity like a rolling session, but you may want to play around with how much you put in. Don't go over 600mg sodium per liter and you'll be fine.

 

Rolling is hard to judge. There are so many variables that can't be accounted for... I would go by feel on this one. You're looking at 6-12 METs, most likely, so I would think that at most you might want 100g of carbs per hour hypothetically, but I think that's unreasonable to consume in BJJ practice in liquid form, and you may only need half that to feel good. How much you consume depends on how long the roll is... I mean, if you're going to roll for 3 hours then you should consume carbs regularly. If you're going to roll for 1 hour, I might just eat a higher carb meal before practice starts. You'll have to figure out which sources feel best to you.

 

I would probably consider solid carbs to be a better idea, at least for me, since being in guard tends to push liquids back up the esophagus. Again, there's no right or wrong answers here... only what works for you.

 

If you do decide to try a shake, I'd make it pretty concentrated and have regular water in a second bottle. That way you can get your carbs and drink just enough water to feel how you want to feel. Pre-mixing into a diluted solution might just screw you up since you may end up with too much fluid in your stomach to roll properly.

[Oz Pariser]

Thanks for the reply! I think you posted it somewhere before, is 600mg about 1/8 tsp? Or did I make that up

I think I'll stick with the shakes I was doing for BJJ, pretty much the same as foundation with a bit more carbs. I'll probably just drink it directly after training. We roll for about an hour each class

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks for the reply! I think you posted it somewhere before, is 600mg about 1/8 tsp? Or did I make that up

I think I'll stick with the shakes I was doing for BJJ, pretty much the same as foundation with a bit more carbs. I'll probably just drink it directly after training. We roll for about an hour each class

600mg is around 1/4 teaspoon, or 2.5mL. Feel free to adjust downwards if you end up feeling like it is too much, and if it tastes funny check to see if you used iodized salt. The iodide will give a very strong taste, but sea salt is infinitely easier at first. Over time you can get used to the iodized salt, but if it is a problem just use non-iodized salt.

[Oz Pariser]

Thanks! I use Himalayan salt

[Joshua Naterman]

You're welcome!

[nackyy20]

This is a measurement of how fast foods get digested and enter the bloodstream as compared to pure glucose. Usually this is based on glucose having a value of 100.

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keepwell

[Mike Iwerks]

I had a couple of questions if someone wouldn't mind giving me some input. Are you supposed to put salt in your water all day long? Or only a couple of times a day?

And what sort of shake would you recommend for a BJJ rolling session, which can be fairly intense cardio? Same as a session of Foundation?

I heard some advice from a nutritionist who recommended chicken broth prior to a workout. Something like "Better than Bullion" for the sodium. Any thoughts ?

[Daniel Taylor-Shaut]

No wonder you're 220+ lbs. That's an immense amount of food to be eating. Also, uhh, that's an immense of money to be spending, too. Is there a scaled-down more realistic version to all this. I do eat organic and factor in healthy fats: coconut oil, avocadoes, nuts, and so on; as well as few to zero grains and good meats. But all those BCAAs and frequent intake of supplements adds up in pocket change. Any suggestions? (Aside from obvious cheeky and snarky side commentary...)

[Mikkel Ravn]

?..as well as few to zero grains and good meats.

Are you doing low carb? I went through the phase of cutting down on grains, but it left me feeling constantly hungry and messed with my endurance and power. I don't eat huge amount of flour and grain based foods, but I do have two-three slices of decent bread per day, perhaps some pasta or rice, and it simply makes me feel better, although low carb proponents would just argue that it's my addiction coming through, lol.

Low carb may work for some, but if you're highly active it may be detrimental to performance. Besides, I think low carb reflects a somewhat dogmatic perspective on nutrition. Carbs are a cheap and efficiently used source of energy, and if you're constantly deprived of energy, all of your costly BCAA's and supplements probably aren't doing much good anyway.

Also, there's a more updated thread on this subject, I believe it's called 'perfect nutrition 2013', or similar. It should be stickied in the nutrition section.

[Apostolos Bariotis]

When I finish the workout I do the stretching series. Should I start eating the meals AFTER the workout and BEFORE the stretching or just after the stretching?

[Jon Douglas]

Not sure it's a great idea to eat a lot of solid food before doing a hard bridge stretch... the leg ones should be fine, but the idea is not to cool down or stiffen up after str training. I have been known to take some whey protein between str/flex, but I'm not Josh, nor is gaining muscle a priority for me just my 2c

[Cole Dano]

Maybe a few swigs off a protein/carb shake, but a heavy meal before stretching is very unpleasant. Pike and bridge in particular.

 

Also you'll cool down too much if you wait to eat. One of the advantages of stretching after the workout is the fact your body is warmed up.

[Ita Sha]

I always stretch (S) after F7 (FS and MS) and after H, and I have never ate in the middle of the session, I think it is weird to eat in the middle of the session, no..?

[Richard Harper]

Thank you so much for putting this post together. I found it a fascinating read. Would you change anything about this for someone training as a distance runner. 5km up to marathon depending on season. 

I'm fairly new to GST but I'm using it as my core and conditioning component as a runner but running endurance is my top priority. 

Sorry if this was posted by someone else, I haven't read all 17 pages. :/

[Matic Balantic]

I red this, but long time ago so maybe this won't make sense, but here it is ... My take on nutrition is similar to training. The most important thing si consistency. You can keep it VERY simple and reap 80 - 90% of the benefits of good nutrition. Thrive is a perfect example. We so often like to analyze and complicate things, instead of just do simple things consistently ... pre/mid/post .. and some would add even two more mid workout meals ... How much benefit do you get vs eating healty consistently (3/4 meals per day, whole foods, making sure you get enough proteins, carbs and healty fats in)? I don't think it is worth it, unleas you are an elite athlete. Even more ... more often then not, people don't have good basic eating habits, but have very specific plans for pre/mid/post workout ...

I have no idea how your nutrition is, maybe it is perfect Don't want to guess. What I want to say is - maybe you have very healty eating habits, then I don't think you need to worry much about pre/mid/post and if you don't, make sure to have good basics first and then see if you need to complicate your life with more advanced meal prep and timing.

The fact that this topic has 17 pages alone, tells a lot about how much we like to complicate things

[Jeff Serven]

On 11/25/2016 at 8:24 AM, Matic Balantic said:

The fact that this topic has 17 pages alone, tells a lot about how much we like to complicate things

Well put!

[Richard Harper]

On 25 November 2016 at 4:24 PM, Matic Balantic said:

I red this, but long time ago so maybe this won't make sense, but here it is ... My take on nutrition is similar to training. The most important thing si consistency. You can keep it VERY simple and reap 80 - 90% of the benefits of good nutrition. Thrive is a perfect example. We so often like to analyze and complicate things, instead of just do simple things consistently ... pre/mid/post .. and some would add even two more mid workout meals ... How much benefit do you get vs eating healty consistently (3/4 meals per day, whole foods, making sure you get enough proteins, carbs and healty fats in)? I don't think it is worth it, unleas you are an elite athlete. Even more ... more often then not, people don't have good basic eating habits, but have very specific plans for pre/mid/post workout ...

I have no idea how your nutrition is, maybe it is perfect Don't want to guess. What I want to say is - maybe you have very healty eating habits, then I don't think you need to worry much about pre/mid/post and if you don't, make sure to have good basics first and then see if you need to complicate your life with more advanced meal prep and timing.

The fact that this topic has 17 pages alone, tells a lot about how much we like to complicate things

Many thanks for your reply. 

 

To give more info, my nutrition has become quite good over the past year. I all but cut out salt, greatly reduced sugar and almost all processed foot, eat as much veg as I can afford/have time to prepare and cycle good quality carbs and meats so it's mega varied. I'm really feeling different but I'm very interested in maximising workout efficiency and of course the body's rebuild phase is huge in that. To take an obvious one, if I don't sleep right the night after a good workout then I feel haggard and realise I've probably gained little from that workout. I'm sure the same thing can happen with nutrient timing. 

 

All my goals are based around running and I've found GST the perfect way to cover the strength and conditioning part of my favourite hobby. 

[Douglas Wadle]

what distance running?  if you are running ultras, then obviously you need to eat. If you are running 5k and 10k road races.  no need to eat.  Anything under an hour is going to be run at about your LT or higher.  eating won't help, and may hinder.  Over an hour and up to 2 hours, maybe some benefit from liquid calories that need much less digestion to be absorbed.  over 2 hours you probably need more substantial nutrition.  This could be as complicated as you want to make it, and whole books have been written on the subject, many of them contradicting each other.