Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Aaron Griffin]

Anyone here used dessicated liver? It used to be all the rage with the old time guys...

[Joshua Naterman]

Dessicated liver is good because of the huge vitamin stores in the liver. Regular liver is apparently better, but I don't know.

Guarana is very difficult to standardize, so it is hard to say exactly how much caffeine you are getting per each dose of say 50 mg guarana. Each batch has a different concentration. I know it CAN be standardized, which is why some products are more expensive and have a dosage of caffeine from guarana specifically. If that isn't there the guarana is either being estimated or not counted. I do not know if absorption rates are different.

[Jonathan Nasman]

Thanks for an awesome article Slizz, this is really helpful. I've learned more in the past twenty minutes about workout nutrition than I have in years. I'll be testing it out over the next few weeks. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

As far as caffeine goes, I don't think long-term it's a very good strategy to increasing workout performance, as any stimulants burn out your adrenals and that can't be good for energy output.

[Joshua Naterman]

Adrenal fatigue is dependant on many, many factors and blaming stimulants is a bit silly without taking dosage into account. Of course, you're right for many people! 50-100mg a day of caffeine on training days 15-20 minutes before strength work won't cause fatigue in much of anyone, but the doses people use caffeine in are usually way higher than that. If you follow the directions on the Hydroxycut bottle, for example, you're taking around 600mg a day. That... is a lot and will absolutely not be sustainable for long periods of time without negative consequences for just about everyone.

One thing I want to point out, just so there is no confusion on the matter, is that this eating protocol is for maximum performance, not minimum body fat. It's not going to make you a tub of lard, but if you are cutting for a contest or something you may want to limit carbs for most of the meals. If you are diabetic or insulin resistant, make sure you're getting more fats and not so much sugar... become fat adapted. It will be good for you.

I'm certainly getting leaner still, and it is pretty neat actually since I'm not counting calories at all, but I do not know how this affects people who try to drop below 6-8%. High performance athletics always require some body fat, so dropping lower than that isn't ideal. It screws with your hormones and whatnot, even Poliquin found out that he needed to stay at 6% to avoid sleep issues.

[Aleister Ruffer]

One question:

I wake up and work out, making it hard for me to do a meal an hour before working out. Right now it's a protein drink (am currently trying BCAA's instead) 20-30 minutes before.

Is there anything I can do to improve that?

--AJ

[Joshua Naterman]

You could get up earlier, eat (could be a slow protein drink with some sweet potato or really low GL(not just GI), and get another hour of sleep. I don't know how that would work with your schedule. I used to do things like that when I was in the Navy. Then you could do your normal BCAA / protein (both would be better, but this is not necessary) drink right before the workout. I will suggest that you eat a piece of fruit before the workout as well.

At the very least, have carbs before your workout along with the protein/BCAA! Sweet potato, citrus fruit, anything that is moderate GI. Then just have grapes, raisins, jelly beans, whatever sugar you like, during your workout in small doses between sets/rounds with water. That alone helps a lot!

[Razz]

Personally I'd never disturb sleep to get up and eat.. I believe in as long as possible quality sleep

[Joshua Naterman]

As long as you time it at the end of a sleep cycle there isn't much of a problem. Sleep cycle = 90 minutes, on average.

[Josh Schmitter]

Again, I must thank slizzardman for this. Been trying to implement it as much as possible, but have a few questions about the whole triglyceride subject. I'm fat adapted so I'm usually trying to hit a 1:1 fat/protein grams ratio for post workout meals, but I'm a little confused on which foods are what. In my searching I've come up with a lot of technical information(which is still welcome) about what SCT,MCT,LCT are, but not what foods I can find them in(at least not many...this is the best thing I've found http://thirdplanetfood.com/tidbits/?p=392). When you said avocado and heavy cream would slow digestion, but coconut/coconut oil would not...why? When I look for fatty acid profiles I get things like:

68% oleic acid (C18:1), 25% linoleic acid (C18:2), 4% palmitic acid (C16:0) and a little of palmitoleic acid (C16:1), stearic acid (C18:0)

I guess I'm asking what the conversion formula is to get from that into if it is a MCT, or LCT.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a complicated answer to give, because the only 100% sure-fire way to do it is to print out a list of all MCT, all SCT, and all LCT. Then you look at fatty acid profiles for each food product and compare.

Coconut fat is approximately 70% MCT. There are also some SCT in there, and some LCT. Because it is mostly MCT, and MCT do not delay gastric emptying (food moving from stomach to intestines), there will be no significant delay of energy release into the blood. This is why coconut fat is actually an EXCELLENT energy source for fat adapted people before workouts and during extended bouts of exercise. It would also be great for replenishing intramuscular fat stores after the workout without slowing down the absorption of protein!

Milk fat is mostly LCT, though there is around 15% MCT (and I believe the best grassfed milk is around 30%, even goat's milk doesn't have more) but compared to the hormonal factors and relatively low levels of fat per cup of milk you don't get much of a gastric delay effect unless you really drink a LOT. Heavy cream, however, is very concentrated milk fat and that is why it is so good for keeping you from feeling hungry for long periods of time! The sugars and proteins that milk has are almost absent in heavy cream and this gets rid of the cause of insulin spikes from milk!

Oleic acid is a long chain acid.

Chain-lengths range is from 2 to 80 but commonly from 12 up to 24. With a chain length from 2 to 6 (or 4) they are called short-chain, from 8 (or 6) to 10 they are called medium-chain and 12 up to 24 they are called long-chain fatty acids. Their physical and biological properties are related to this partition in 3 classes.

Chain length of 16:

Palmitic acid (16:0) is usually considered the most abundant saturated fatty acid in nature, and it is found in appreciable amounts in the lipids of animals, plants and lower organisms. It comprises 20-30% of the lipids in most animal tissues, and it is present in amounts that vary from 10 to 40% in seed oils. Among commercial sources, it is most abundant in palm oil (40% or more).

Chain length of 18:

Stearic acid (18:0) is the second most abundant saturated fatty acid in nature, and again it is found in the lipids of most living organisms. In lipids of some commercial importance, it occurs in the highest concentrations in ruminant fats (milk fat and tallow) or in vegetable oils such as cocoa butter, and of course in industrially hydrogenated fats. It can comprise 80% of the total fatty acids in gangliosides. Relatively high proportions of stearic acid subjected to enzymatic desaturation (to oleic acid), in comparison to other saturated fatty acids.

Oleic acid (9c-18:1 or 18:1(n-9)) is by far the most abundant monoenoic fatty acid in plant and animal tissues, both in structural lipids and in depot fats. For example, it can comprise 30-40% of the total fatty acids in adipose fats of animals, and 20 to 80% of the seed oils of commerce. Olive oil contains up to 78% of oleic acid, and it is believed to have especially valuable nutritional properties as part of the Mediterranean diet. Indeed, it has a number of important biological properties discussed below, both in the free and esterified form. Oleic acid is the biosynthetic precursor of a family of fatty acids with the (n-9) terminal structure and with chain-lengths of 20 to 24 or more.

Those are some basic examples of chain length and how to know whether something is long, medium, or short. Beef, for example, is essentially all LCT.

Sources: http://www.cyberlipid.org/fa/acid0001.htm#3, http://www.cyberlipid.org/fa/acid0001.htm, http://lipidlibrary.aocs.org/Lipids/fa_eic.html

[Nicholas Sortino]

So, quick question, what do you think of my typical PWO shake: 1 can coconut milk (13.5oz), 60g "protein" powder (made at true protein, it is a mix of whole egg, whey, casien, BCAA with extra leucine, and beef protein - in that order of percentage), 16g amazing grass superfood (2 servings), 10g creatine mono, 1 tbsp macnut oil.

I think I added it up one day and it is over 1000kcal, lol. I don't drink it all at once, but rather half right away, and the second half probably an hour later. Tons of fat and few carbs as I am mostly fat adapted, and am a leader of the anti-carb crusade (this part was for triangle)

[Guest]

Slightly offtopic but what is your (anyone's) opinion on using coconut milk vs. coconut oil?

[Nicholas Sortino]

Slightly offtopic but what is your (anyone's) opinion on using coconut milk vs. coconut oil?

For what? I usually cook in coconut oil, but I use the milk for my shakes and stuff. Mostly because it makes a pretty decent base. Can't really mix stuff into coconut oil. It also contains some other stuff the oil doesn't.

Oil is great though, I use a little bit of it in my pre workout stuff for some quick MCTs.

[Guest]

I was mostly thinking along the lines of the nutrients that coconut milk has and c-oil doesn't. When you want maximum fat content and no sugars I assume c-oil is the way to go but I can see why you would choose c-milk for a PWO shake. Thank you!

[Josh Schmitter]

Rock on. That was very succinct as always slizzardman. That was everything I was curious about and more. Very special awesome for including the links .

[Joshua Naterman]

I was mostly thinking along the lines of the nutrients that coconut milk has and c-oil doesn't. When you want maximum fat content and no sugars I assume c-oil is the way to go but I can see why you would choose c-milk for a PWO shake. Thank you!

The coconut milk, to me, contributes a lot to the taste! My real preference is for freshly creamed coconut, which is just a fresh coconut with the water from inside put in the blender and then all the meat, and you chop it up into a paste! It is delicious and nutricious! Most of the carbs in coconut are from the fiber, and there is some protein but not much.

I have found that coconut oil mixes almost as well, but I don't get the same wonderful taste! It's not bad, it just... isn't there, you know? It doesn't change the taste at all. That may be good for some, I don't know! Coconut milk still has quite a lot of fat in it, so you're not missing out on much in that department!

[Josh Schmitter]

Does the coconut water contribute a lot to the taste slizz? I had some raw coconut the other day but just ate the meat since a lot of dirt/brown 'strings' from the shell got into the water when I broke it. It kinda had a flowery almost perfumy taste to me and I'm just wondering if that's because I'm not used to it, got a bad coconut, or to get that regular taste the water should be mixed in.

[Joshua Naterman]

The way you know the coconut is good is by the water. It should be completely clear. If the coconut feels very heavy for its size and has so much water that it is kind of hard to make it slosh then it's almost guaranteed to be a good coconut. Note: There ARE some "dry" coconuts but they should be labeled as such. I do not know much about them. I prefer the white coconuts (NOT the same as young coconuts, which are completely full of water and have essentially no meat) to the brown because they just seem to be good coconuts more often. I have yet to get a bad one. It could just be my area though! Anyhow, you will get the best taste and the best nutrition from the actual coconut water. It should taste very light, like the best water you have ever had! If it tastes strong or tangy or something that's no good. If the water has strings of cloudy stuff, that's no good. That's a bad coconut. Someone with more experience will have to tell me if it is still safe to eat the meat from those, but I don't.

Each coconut always has what seems to be the perfect amount of water for its meat to be blended with! If, for some reason, you decide to drink the coconut water separately (because it is so tasty perhaps) just use the same amount of distilled or spring water. You could use tap water too, but tap water has some undesirable chemicals in it. It's not the end of the world, just lower on the totem pole.

[Svend]

You are suggesting creatine intake before AND after workout? I usually consume 5 grams after workout but should I go ahead and split this dose into two - 2,5 grams before and after workout - or should I consume another 5 grams before workout? That'd be quite a lot of creatine!

[Svend]

You are suggesting creatine intake before AND after workout? I usually consume 5 grams after workout but should I go ahead and split this dose into two - 2,5 grams before and after workout - or should I consume another 5 grams before workout? That'd be quite a lot of creatine!

[Razz]

I'd stick with just 5g post workout.

[Joshua Naterman]

You are suggesting creatine intake before AND after workout? I usually consume 5 grams after workout but should I go ahead and split this dose into two - 2,5 grams before and after workout - or should I consume another 5 grams before workout? That'd be quite a lot of creatine!

Yes, before and after. You CAN supplement with up to 20g per day of monohydrate, but you need to realize that this is because 90% of creatine monohydrate degrades into creatinine, which you pee out. I do prefer kre-alkalyn personally because it is just a superior product in every way. Over 90% is absorbed, so you A) need 1/10th of the monohydrate dose to get a similar effect and B) your stash lasts so much longer! Point B brings me to the other bad thing about monohydrate: It soaks up water from the air and degrades into creatinine as it sits. Obviously, the less you open it the better, but it's not very good for you after a month or two. The Kre-alkalyn does not have this problem. You can read more about it from google searches, but I have been using it for years now and it's excellent. Truly excellent. Of course, some people just like the monohydrate and some respond better to it, but those issues apply to almost everything in supplementation. For pure mass gain, nothing beats a ton of dextrose (or Vitargo) + a ton of creatine monohydrate, but you puff up a lot too. I have never had any issues like that with the kre-alkalyn.

The main point I want to make is that 10g of creatine is not a supermassive dose, especially when taken right around the workout. If you take it any other time, you're not getting the most out of it. Your body WILL make what it needs, and it is going to need creatine during and after the workout. If you supply it then, you severely limit the amount of PWO protein that is wasted in the creatine regeneration process. Remember, if amino acids are used for creatine they can not be used for muscle protein, and you need a full set. It's like taking the steering wheel out of a few cars... Sure, you basically have a whole car, but it's useless without the missing piece. Same goes for protein when it comes to muscle regeneration.

[Joshua Naterman]

I would like to share the fact that I have had several thank you PM's from forum members who have noticed that after a few weeks of following this fairly strictly they have just about no soreness after workouts and that their recovery has gone from 5 days to 3 days on average, in terms of the actual muscle groups we work here in an given WOD being back to 100%. That's pretty awesome!

I want to encourage everyone who has good results to share them here, personal stories are more important than my claims!

[Aaron Griffin]

I've had similar experiences with BCAAs before and after. Lessened soreness quite a bit. Could you explain that?

[Razz]

Slizzardman you are probably right, but when writing my answer I thought of a cost/benefit scenario and I really doubt it's worth the extra cost keeping up the creatine at 20g/day..Unless you REALLY REALLY want to be the best in which case there's a lot of other stuff to think about first. But then again, the title does say 'perfect'