Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Nicholas Sortino]

Slizzardman you are probably right, but when writing my answer I thought of a cost/benefit scenario and I really doubt it's worth the extra cost keeping up the creatine at 20g/day..Unless you REALLY REALLY want to be the best in which case there's a lot of other stuff to think about first. But then again, the title does say 'perfect'

well, creatine monohydrate is really freakin cheap. Probably one of the cheapest supplements you can get. And it is one of the few that you know actually works.

I think I should try switching to that other creatine you're talking about slizz, cause I doubt I intake enough carbs to get the full effect of the creatine. That one isn't so reliant on carbs if I remember correctly?

[Joshua Naterman]

Razz: I agree, one dose is the most cost effective way to go. I just mentioned the 20g because I thought it was worth pointing out, but 20g is very hard on your body and I do not recommend that because of the extraordinarily large amount of waste products that produces and also because of the high risk of bloating.

Phrak: BCAAs prevent soreness for a similar reason that creatine supplements increase muscle protein synthesis. BCAAs are a part of our skeletal muscle tissue, and while I am not 100% sure whether we actively burn BCAAs straight from skeletal muscle fibers or if it is stored separately (I don't even know if there is definitive research in that area) I do know that our bodies WILL cannibalize BCAAs from our damaged muscle protein if it is not available in the bloodstream in sufficient quantity. That leaves essentially useless proteins floating around that have to be digested, and it is theorized that these protein fragments are irritating nerve endings. The exact mechanisms are not known for sure and probably will not be for a long time, but we DO know that by making BCAAs available during and after the workout (prime healing time) we prevent most of the BCAA cannibalization from happening to begin with. Not only does this speed up healing but it also prevents soreness.

Nick: That is what they say. Since I take mine before and after workouts I tend to have a good bit of carbs going for the after dose due to my meal plan, but I have not noticed any need to intentionally spike insulin, and I have not run across any literature suggesting such a process is necessary with Kre-alkalyn. Of course, it won't hurt, but I just keep that as my normal post-workout meal.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nick: Also, monohydrate IS stupidly cheap, but even at those prices the Kre-alkalyn is cheaper per equivalent dose. Once you have opened it, after 2 months monohydrate in a jar has converted mostly to creatinine. Or so several tests have shown, anyways. As always, your results may vary.

[Nicholas Sortino]

I drink whole milk during my workout instead of water usually, at least a liter, but that is the majority of my workout carbs, since my PWO is mostly coconut milk and protien powder with just a few carbs (like 10-15g) coming from the green stuff powder. I also sometimes snack on black or raspberries while working out as well.

[Razz]

Sliz from where do you have the stuff about creatine conversion? I recently saw a study showing creatine to degrade at about 2,5%/day in water so I imagine this is much much less in air..

[Svend]

So I would benefit more from consuming 5 grams before and after workout, since this is when my body will be using it, than comsuming 5 grams in the morning and 5 grams after workout? And what about rest days?

I too am curious about creatine conversion. The two months thing just doesn't sound right to me based on what I've previously read.

[Razz]

Morning is a good time aswell since more insulin will be released due to the overnight fast.

[Joshua Naterman]

Razz: Creatine in solution does degrade around that rate. It "only" degrades by 80% if in solution for 90 days though! Dicreatine citrate powders showed no degradation under humidity conditions up to 100%, so that may be a viable powder alternative.(http://www.aapspharmscitech.org/view.asp?art=pt040225)

It is very hard to get a straight answer that is backed up by a study for monohydrate powder for some reason. What I have found is 10+ sources, about evenly split between forum posts and more reputable sites like sport blogs run by people with degrees, that claim creatine monohydrate has a 2 year shelf life when kept tightly sealed (factory sealed) in a cool, dark place. It appears that no one thinks it is a good idea to keep monohydrate powder around for more than six months at most, but there is no hard data on this anywhere that I can find, at least in google and pubmed searches. I honestly can not remember where I obtained my information regarding monohydrate powder, as that was literally years ago.

The most important thing to remember is that the more fresh air and heat you expose creatine to the faster it degrades. So as you use the bottle, you store more air each time as there is more empty space, thus speeding up degradation to some extent as there is a larger supply of corrosive oxygen and moisture. It is unclear, according to these sources, how monohydrate powders respond to humidity.

I just like kre-alkalyn because none of these are concerns. They have 10 year old samples of powder that are over 95% pure. Pretty sweet, if you ask me. I also believe they have samples of multi-year old solutions that have not degraded.

Monohydrate is great as long as you don't get a huge container that lasts forever. If you're going through a container every 2 months you should be fine. You should also be ok, following the logic of the above paragraphs, if you had a large container that you used to refill a small container that was for daily use. That would be my preferred solution if I was very keen on the large containers of creatine monohydrate, personally. I do not know that this would actually prevent any degradation, so please do not think that is a proven idea. I am not responsible for your choices and/or any negative effects that may result!

[Rafael David]

milk during the workout is good?

[Joshua Naterman]

Well, that really depends on how you define ok. It's not going to cause any health issues, that's for sure. Whole milk has a relatively high fat content AND most of that fat is LCT, so it digests slowly. You have probably heard of many people failing the "drink a gallon of whole milk in one hour" challenge. That happens because we can't digest whole milk very quickly.

You would be slowing down the absorption of proteins and whatever other foods you eat PWO if you have LARGE quantities of milk, like what nick is using, but the nutrition will still be there. So that is perhaps not the ideal time to consume whole milk, but your PWO meals are different, especially your solid meals.

[Razz]

I'd keep the milk around the workout because of the huge insulin spike, milk definately has some good growth inducing potential and it's cheap. For gaining mass if you don't mind the extra bodyfat the whole GOMAD seems to work pretty well.

[Joshua Naterman]

Oh, it does, but tons of the whole milk is not what you would want during your workout because then you are limiting absorption immediately AFTER the workout. I am sure that there is some amount that will not pose a problem, but I am betting that a liter is a little beyond it. I would think that .25 to .5L would be fine, especially if the milk is all drank within the first 2/3 of the workout.

Also, 1% milk appears to be the absolute best form of milk to have immediately PWO. You DO need fats pwo.

[Razz]

Yep I agree sliz, although I don't know which specific fat% is best

[Joshua Naterman]

Me either, that 1% information comes from a Harvard Medical study comparing 1% chocolate milk with post workout shakes. Apparently the milk won!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029509

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16676705

The chocolate milk has an identical effect to sports drinks for post exercise recovery, including the vaunted Endurox G4, which it was tested against. Well, an identical formulation anyways. Makes sense too, since the ratios are basically identical. Did we really need science for THAT one?!

Also, here is a study that supports the "eat sugar during workout" idea I have discussed in this thread! 25-40% increase in time to fatigue. Like I said, you can just keep going, it's awesome. This also supports my assertion that eating sugars during your workout preserves stored glycogen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11181599

[Rafael David]

hey Slizz, i can use condensed milk?

[Joshua Naterman]

I have no idea, honestly. Sweetened, condensed milk is mostly sugar, you would want to mix it with real milk or at least water and protein I think, at least ideally. I don't see why that would be a problem.

Guys, I will tell you this: The more natural the sugars are, the better your recovery will be. The studies linked above actually show that having a fructose/glucose(or sucrose, I don't remember, but sucrose is just glucose+ fructose anyways) mix preserved more endogenous sugar(glycogen) AND improved recovery a little more than just glucose. This means fruits, which have this mixture, are excellent for recovery. Better, in fact, than plain sugar. There are also all the enzymes, bioflavanoids, and stuff we haven't even classified that are in fruits and not in processed foods (INCLUDING pasturized juices).

[Longshanks]

Very informative article thanks Slizz, although how the hell do you have time to anything besides write these articles, work and train! lol. I've just been having a protein powder mixed with semi-skimmed milk before and after training so far, followed by my evening meal an hour or so after. Will try and incorporate fruit before and after as well now, and maybe some raisins for during workout. I usually eat fruit spread out during the day with my my pack-up at work but think it seems it'd be better closer to my workout time.

[Joshua Naterman]

I read fast and type relatively fast, and this semester my classes are super easy!

[Rafael David]

Slizz Hey, I think I found the carb / sugar perfect to consume during training: sugar cane juice! Here, it is very common and inexpensive and has good nutritional values:

"The nutritional value of sugar is directly linked to their high sugar content (40% to 50% of sugars in dry matter), since its protein content is extremely low, which gives it the characteristic of being a food very unbalanced in relation to their nutrients.

The cane is a plant composed on average of 65% to 75% water, but its main component is sucrose, which represents 70% to 91% soluble solids. The juice retains all the nutrients from cane sugar, including minerals (3-5%) as iron, calcium, potassium, sodium, phosphorus, magnesium and chlorine, as well as vitamins B and C. The plant also contains glucose (2% to 4%), fructose (2% to 4%), protein (0.5% to 0.6%), starch (0.001% to 0.05%), waxes and fatty (0.05% to 0.015%) and colors, from 3% to 5%.

Besides these, sugar cane juice is composed of antioxidants, phenolic acids (caffeic, and synaptic isomers of chlorogenic acid), flavonoids (apigenin, luteolin and derivatives Tricine) and other phenolic compounds. The consumption of only 250 ml may result in the ingestion of 40 mg of phenolic thus representing an important source of antioxidants in the diet. "

WIKIPEDIA

what do you think?

[Rafael David]

ps: may not be well enough to understand, because I used an online translator! :oops:

[Rafael David]

wow I forgot:

when you take a sip of sugarcane between sets is as if you were turning into Ultra Super Sayan! hahaha because the muscles swell A LOT. not counting the veins!

[Joshua Naterman]

Interesting!

I am going to be doing some experimentation with using different sugars, but I believe that a mix of dextrose and maltose is going to be pretty good, and perhaps short chain maltodextrins.

FYI, your body absorbs water AND sugar better when you have not more than 80g sugar per liter of water AND 600mg sodium choride. Go figure. That's around 1/4 teaspoon of salt I believe. I use sea salt. I do not have that much sugar. Anyhow, that's a big deal. If you don't like the acidity of drinking lots of Gatorade, just put that much sea salt per liter of water along with your sugar (in my opinion, preferably dextrose or Vitargo). As I have not yet tried the cane juice I can not comment on it, but you can bet I will soon! I am, as always, very interested in this.

General sugar info you should know:

Sucrose and dextrose(glucose) result in very similar levels of glycogen replenishment, but I believe that during a workout pure glucose will work better. The fructose in the sucrose can only be used by the liver for local glycogen synthesis and NOT for muscle glycogen synthesis according to everything I have read. The slight difference in glycogen replenishment is most likely from the fructose directly replenishing the liver while the glucose primarily replenishes the muscles, since only 20% of ingested glucose goes to the liver. Liver depletion is minimal from rep to rep, and if you consume 30-40g of sucrose that's 15-20g of fructose. This absorbs very rapidly, and unless you're really working hard for quite a while I don't think your liver will need that much fructose, quite honestly. The circulating glucose can be used instead of depleting liver glycogen, so this spares the liver glycogen to a large extent, in turn limiting the need for fructose to what will be in your PWO fruits and perhaps even less than that. Every gram of fructose you consume that is not needed by the liver for local glycogen synthesis AT THE MOMENT OF ABSORPTION will be transformed into fat and VLDL(this is slightly oversimplified but basically the exact truth). That is bad, because THAT is the type of cholesterol that piles up on arterial walls. Fructose that is not used for glycogen synthesis is metabolized more or less exactly like alcohol is. That, my friends, makes fructose a poison when it is not needed. Fructose can and does cause many of the exact same side effects as alcohol, from rises in blood pressure and insulin resistance to fat accumulation TO LIVER DAMAGE. Seriously. There is a condition caused by excess fructose that is basically non-alcohol cirrhosis. I am not making that up. You can get cirrhosis (severe liver damage) from eating too much fructose, exactly like too much alcohol. For these reasons, I think it is fairly intelligent to limit fructose outside of the first meal of the day (where it can quickly replenish liver glycogen used during sleep by the brain) and post workout meals, where again it will replenish the liver. That's a big deal to me, personally. Each piece of fruit tends to have 4-7g of fructose, so having these fruits after the workout is literally perfect. However, after the first 2-3 meals (which should ideally each have 1-2 pieces of fruit) or so it is certain that you have had enough fructose and can back off from the fruit. I think this is a very, very smart way to utilize this nutrient without abusing our bodies.

I would like to thank Jeff of Crossfit South Tacoma for making me aware of the sugar video "Sugar: The Bitter Truth", which gets very detailed about some of the ill effects of fructose on the human body, especially in large quantities. I will post it up somewhere on this site as well. It is 90 minutes long, but well worth the time in my opinion.

[Rafael David]

I'm a little scared now, I have to admit, because I eat a portion of fruit (banana, apple, pineapple, plum, etc.) in almost all meals. What do I do? I wait until after practice to eat fruit? :shock:

[Joshua Naterman]

I wouldn't get scared, just figure out what your overall intake is per day. To avoid going crazy with math, assume 7g fructose per banana and apple, and 5g per pitted fruit, pineapple and citrus. Don't count the first 20 of your first meal and don't count the first 20 of your PWO meals. The rest really isn't necessary, but don't sweat it if you find out that each meal has like 6g of fructose, that's cool. Outside of the numbers I just listed to not count, you really should shoot for 18-25g of fructose per day. You will also need to add in 1/2 of the grams of "sugar" and "high fructose corn syrup" to get an accurate fructose count.

THIS is where cereal grains (oats, rice, wheat, etc) come in, because they break down into 100% glucose. Sweet potatoes have 1g of fructose per 100g, so basically 4-5g per pound. Those are really great carb sources, though I would personally prefer sprouted grains. You can sprout them yourself at home. You don't need a 3" tail on the sprouts, you just need the grain to show visible signs of germination. That's it. 1/4" sprout is fine. That shows germination is complete. Germination destroys nearly all of the harmful lectins that may be present in unsprouted seeds AND unlocks all of the nutrition in the seed. Everything from enzyme content to vitamin and mineral absorption goes through the roof after germination. I know, that's a little nutty to many people. Keep in mind that this is A) very easy to do and B) has been done forever. In fact, if you are a religious person of the Judeo-Christian variety you will be interested to know that there is actually a recipe for sprouted grain bread in the bible.

As far as unsprouted grains go, rice and corn are your best choices overall, with brown rice being #1. If you buy food grade hydrogen peroxide, dilute it down to a 3% concentration, and soak the rice in what I believe is 1 part of the 3% solution to 7 parts water you will actually destroy the vast majority of harmful compounds that are naturally on the rice. I don't remember off the top of my head what they are, but there are some carcinogenic substances found on the rice grains (and other cereal grans as well) that the peroxide seems to destroy. I do not know if the same thing is accomplished by repeated rinsing.

ACHTUNG!!!! WARNING! DO NOT USE THE REGULAR HYDROGEN PEROXIDE! You will poison yourself with heavy metals if you do. ONLY use FOOD GRADE HYDROGEN PEROXIDE. It should always be a 33% solution when you buy it, and it will have no harmful additives or stabilizers.

[Svend]

I just watched the movie you recommended (Sugar: the bitter truth) but while very interesting and educational about fructose it confused me a little. It seemed that he wasn't all that concerned about the effects of glucose since the VLDL generation and the other fructose-like consequences were not near as significant as the effects of fructose. He recommended eating fiber along with carbohydrate (glucose I take it) intake and you'ld be good to go.

But I should avoid glucose and leave it to my body to produce it from fat except for just around workout, right? It confused me that such a knowledgeable man would leave you with the impression that glucose intake is not something you should be too worried about.