Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Joshua Naterman]

There really isn't a fast source of protein that can compete with protein shakes, but skim milk would be your best bet. Milk with fat just takes too long to digest, so getting skim milk down (yuck, I know) would be great. It's cheap and it works. You'd need a quart of milk to get 32g of protein and 48g of carbs, which is a great thing to get for each PWO liquid meal.

I do end up doing this fairly often in the evening, and I have no problems. I love eating right before I sleep, it doesn't bother me at all.

I suppose you could try making a 92% lean beef milkshake, but I can not guarantee anything in the taste department.

What would be the reason for not using the protein shakes? They cost the same or less as the cheapest meat. Only gallons of milk are cheaper, and that's the nasty store brand milk I'm talking about. Good milk ends up costing the same per gram of protein as the protein shakes. I suppose if you were lactose intolerant you would want to use egg protein.

That's another good source... eggs. Again, whole food will never enter the system at the same rate as a liquid, but deal with what you have and what you are willing to use!

[Mason89]

Thanks for that Slizzardman, no nothing particularly against protein shakes i just prefer spending money on whole foods, although im always up for trying them. I try to eat mostly paleo but have add oats in the morning to my eggs and eat lots of fruit for carbs, post workout was currently peanuts and a banana. I was into the eating 6 regular meals a day but was never really satisfied so i dropped that to 3 large main meals plus 1 snack meal. My diet isnt spot on at the moment, still experimenting with what works for me - with the goal of building muscle while maintaining body fat levels.

Could i ask how you structure your meals if you workout in the evening?

[Joshua Naterman]

I usually don't eat until noon. I eat from noon-ish until around 8-9 pm. It's great, I just chow down. It's nearly impossible to eat more calories than I need in that window of time. I probably have 7-8 meals, with some being large and of course my small (comparatively) post workout meals.

I feel great this way. IF I have to be more active in the morning I have a teaspoon of honey and a mixture of heavy whipping cream, milk or water, and protein powder. Or I just have a chicken leg quarter or something. I don't try to keep things super regular, I mean for one thing that's not natural and it's also not necessary. When I am less active I am on an intermittent fasting schedule where I eat 8-9 hours of of the day. If I am going to have multiple training sessions I just let my pre and post workout windows be my entire eating time. I find that with 4-6 PWO meals and 1-2 PreWO meals per training session I just don't need any more food than that most days, but if I do I eat.

The most important thing is that I have no fructose in my diet. Now that I have been doing that consistently for a month or two I can usually tell when there's even a little bit of fructose in something that I eat. It is very interesting. It really does affect your body very differently than glucose and starches (glucose chains). I have tons of greens pretty regularly, brussel sprouts and broccoli/cauliflower are a normal part of my diet (fresh only), and for carbs I have whatever rice or potato or other starch I want. One of my favorite new mixes is mashed white potatoes and sprouted lentils, which I am having fairly often as my PWO carbs. It's great.

I am getting very lean, I suppose I should post pictures.

[Eddie Stelling]

Slizz, what is the protein/carb/fat intake for your meals that are Pre work out but not directly before your work out, i.e. your lunch meal? If I am working out at around 5:30 pm and eating lunch at 12 or 12:30, should i be eating a sweet potatoe or saving the heavy carb consumption for the meal 1 hr before my workout and after my workout? After reading this I cut my sweet potatoe in half and am eating half now with broccoli, cauliflower, and roasted chicken and plan on eating the other half at 4:30 pm with some more veggies and chicken. Just was curious what the meals should before the "window" begins with the last solid meal an hour pre workout. Thanks! Awesome posts by the way, just read it for the first time while I should have been engineering something!!

[Joshua Naterman]

I never have more than 50-60g carbs at any meal, and the only time I have that much is directly PWO. I will usually have 30g of carbs for two meals before I work out. That's a flat cup of rice, for example. That's not very much. I also have veggies and a piece of meat.

I usually do not have high carb and high fat at the same time. That's stupid, the fat will just get stored because of the insulin. What you want is to have high carb(40+ grams), moderate protein(20-30g), low-ish (10-15%) fat OR low carb(10-20g), high fat and low to moderate protein in a meal. The former is what I eat around the workout, both before and after, because it is the most efficient way to fuel my body. I have brown rice or sweet potato, or some other slow starch, before and white potato or white rice (or some other fast starch or glucose source) after workouts. When I am outside the pre and post workout windows I usually have my higher fat meals. I feel exceptionally good this way. I can not speak for everyone, but this works incredibly well for me. I tend to have more veggies around the workouts because the antioxidants are needed the most during those times, but low calorie veggies are good pretty much any time.

By keeping high fat and high carbs in separate meals I avoid potential cholesterol and fat storage issues.

[Eddie Stelling]

Awesome thank you! On the protien shakes you recommend 15-30g at a serving depending on body size, I have always heard around 42g per serving. I usually take 46g of whey (2 even scoops) at each serving (when I wake up, right before I work out and right after). From what I read you take 15-30g before, then post work out you take 15-30g, eat something 30 min later, take another 15-30g.... Is this a waste to take all 46g at once?

[Joshua Naterman]

Kind of. You'll get better results with 1 scoop every 20-30 minutes PWO. Make sure you have 20-40g of glucose or white potatoes or some other fast digesting carbs with each of your PWO shakes until you hit 80-120g of carbs! That's kind of a nonsense general number, but it's the best I can give. You would have to do a lot of calculating to really get the numbers precise and it would be based on your body size and the type/amount of work you were doing.

I usually have a shake immediately pre workout that is mostly protein with some glucose, maybe 20g protein 10g glucose mixed in 750ml water. Then I mix up another 750ml (my current water bottle size) with one scoop of protein and an equal or slightly greater amount of glucose, around 30g of each but sometimes just 15-20g protein. 30 may be a bit much on the protein side. When I have my salt with me I also put about 1/8 tsp of sea salt. That's the workout sippie drink. Then PWO shakes are 30g protein and 40g glucose. I have two of those, one immediately PWO and one 30 minutes later, and then I start eating food. Lots of food, mostly carbs and veggies (also carbs, of course, but so many people think of them separately... ).

[Eddie Stelling]

Hate to keep bothering you but, you mentioned eating white potatoes after the workout because they are fast acting...I thought white carbs were to be avoided?? This being the reason why we should eat sweet potatoes. Eating the amount of sugar you are suggesting seems strange to me. Maybe I am opening up a can of worms that is very complicated and detailed so I apologize if that is the case. I am just trying to nail down a diet that isn't too complicated that promotes growth and performance but is lean. I used to never eat this much fruit, but it seems like the key is when you eat certain types of food. You also mentioned that you aren't eating fructose, is this the key to making this lean?? Because that would mean basically no fruit right? In which case do you replace with more veggies, or do you NEED glucose even if you want to be lean?

Quick ex. of what i ate yesterday:

-AM protein shake 46g

- 1 hr. later - eggs, bacon, sausage

- snack - orange and 1 can of chicken or tuna

-Lunch - roasted chicken with some skin, veggies, and a half sweet potatoe

-Pre WO meal - can of chicken or tuna, half sweet potatoe, veggies

-Pre WO shake (immediately before WO) - 25-30g handful of grapes

-Mid WO shake 25-30g of protein if its a long WO

-Post WO shake (immediately after WO)- 25-30g bunch of grapes & 1peach

-30 min later another shake - 25-30g with some white potatoes and asparagus

-30 min later - steak and salad

-30 min later 25-30g protein shake with salad

Went to bed

Any advice on how to make this better? I want to focus on at least getting the pre WO and the first hour of Post WO correct but also keep it lean. Thanks so much dude!

[Joshua Naterman]

The real truth is much more complicated to understand than it is to use successfully.

Any time you are eating lots of carbs, especially after a workout, .5 to 1g of cinnamon, at minimum, will dramatically increase insulin sensitivity and help ensure that all the carbs are going to muscle storage instead of fat storage.

Not all sugars are equal. The only sugar besides fructose that contains fructose is sucrose, better known as table sugar. You should also know that honey is half fructose, just like HFCS. The only time you are guaranteed not to be hurt by fructose consumption is at your first meal of the day. This is the BEST time to have your fruits. The rest of the day stick to veggies and starches.

There are exceptions: Grapefruit is one. Citrus, in general, does not have as much fructose and does not get absorbed as quickly as most other fruits, making it a great snack any time of the day.

Carrots are an exception on the other side of the fence: They have LOTS of sugar and fructose compared to most other veggies. Should you avoid them? Hell no. Just don't pig out on them.

You NEED to refuel during your workout and during your post workout window. Glucose causes no problems unless you are intentionally overdosing, meaning you're either having huge doses all the time (like 40g every 30 minutes throughout the day or something equally insane and nearly impossible to carry out) or taking a giant mega superdose, meaning more than 80g at one time.

Glucose powder is incredibly cheap, makes your protein shake taste delicious, and is the ideal energy source during your workout. That's why I use it. After the workout, liquids get absorbed the fastest so glucose + protein = the best. Why? all starches break down to glucose. Since time is of the essence you have to get those carbs in quick. By taking glucose you accomplish that goal better than with any other source of carbs, but baked white potato is the closest natural food source followed by white rice (much slower but still fast). That's why I tend to have white rice with my PWO meals and brown rice or sweet potatoes at non-workout meals.

Mid-workout grapes are fine, but immediately pre-workout I'd either have some white potato or white rice for whole food and glucose powder instead if it is available. If I'm using glucose powder it is literally 30 seconds before my first warm up set. Glucose gets in you FAST.

You NEED the carbs during your workout. I highly, highly suggest glucose powder. If you don't have that, eat baked white potato. It is a very close second. You WILL notice a difference. You don't need that much, a bite per set or every other set, depending on what you find works, is all you need.

Should you avoid white carbs outside of the workout window? Perhaps, if you want to regularly maintain 8% bodyfat or something, but if all you care about is being healthy and performing well then it becomes an issue of moderation, like everything else. The primary reason people say to avoid white carbs is because most people only eat for calories and not for nutrients as well. If you're going to be eating for calories, white carbs have the lowest number and amount of nearly every micronutrient you can think of. So, in this sense having sweet potatoes or something else is a better idea. If you're having a little bit of white rice with a bunch of veggies, you are pretty much just as well off. This could turn into something complicated to explain, so I am stopping this part of the discussion here. It is not important to really get into those details, because they do not affect practical application in the slightest, at least until we are talking about truly elite performance.

[Rafael David]

very very nice Slizz!

[Philip Chubb]

As usual awesome post Slizzardman! It seems like the people using post workout fruit may be trading in some fat gain for a little extra recovery? I am going to coconut, whey, glutamine and glycine then.

[Joshua Naterman]

You might be, but it isn't that big of a deal. It might make it hard to go from say 9% to 7% or something like that, but even then I don't know about that. It is simply best to avoid the fructose to remove all doubt until you hit your maintenance bodyfat %, whatever that is, and then you add things in slowly to see what you can stay lean on. If you wanted to, of course.

[Philip Chubb]

I am trying to get to 5 to 6 percent so removing the fructose seems like something that would really make it simplier. Thank you again for the post.

[Eddie Stelling]

Awesome post man! Thanks so much! I really feel like I am getting a reasonable understanding of this thanks to you! Thanks for your time and patience in putting all this stuff in laymen's terms!

[Joshua Naterman]

No problem!

I feel like it is a terrible shame that so many people insist on using scientific terms and repeating what they hear in class. People who aren't in a kinesiology-related field, which is just about everyone, aren't going to know what that means and probably aren't going to learn. As professionals who say we are here to help, doesn't that mean that we need to learn to speak in the common person's tongue?! I believe this is so. I have been able to help a great many people this way, many more than if I was garbling on about sarcomeres and triglycerides and metabolic this and that.

I thank all of you for helping me to refine that ability, which I am always trying to do, so that we can all benefit from better and clearer communication.

[Guillaume Ponce]

I've silently been following this forum and the work of coach Sommer for a few months now and I just registered mainly to give one more "thanks to you", Slizzardman. This post was truly epic.

I'm 35 (better late than never), mainly a paleo-dieter (there are week ends and family meals).

I dropped weight training to embrace body weight training, which I'm a novice at, being in my 4th 6-weeks steady state cycle. I workout 4 times a week, but WOD is still out of reach at my current level.

Regarding your PWO advices, I'm a bit puzzled about three (moot) points, and now that I'm registred I'm going to ask :

1. I read you claimed to be fat adapted, but you seem to talk a lot about carbs.

What do you think of the post of Ido Portal where he claims that "the research on PWO has been done on people with a westernized diets - carb adapted and though the results indicate the need for glycogen replenishment through high GI pwo carb consumption along with a fast protein source, but for someone who has shifted his system to a low carb, higher fat diet, it will respond to a different set of rules - No need to chase your glycogen status'?

For a fat adapted trainee, are MCTs to be favored over carbs or are carbs still needed during the workout?

2. You take your pre-workout meal 1 hour before.

Gregor says at least 2 hours. So does Loren Cordain, of paleo-diet fame.

Which is best and why?

And, pre-workout wise, could you please elaborate on the possibility (or lack of, if you which) to train fasted.

I read that you are doing IF, but you don't train fasted, despite what Martin Berkan would advise.

As far as I am concerned, I notice that training fasted prevents nausea while I'm struggling with the backlever, but I could cope with it if needed.

3. You said this is not aimed at fat loss, but still it seems you are getting very lean on this protocol. Seeing those results on yourself, would you now advise this very same protocol for fat loss (maybe with less carbs post-workout) ?

Let's say someone I know is around 15-16 % and wants to cut down to 10 %.

Thank you again.

[Joshua Naterman]

I've silently been following this forum and the work of coach Sommer for a few months now and I just registered mainly to give one more "thanks to you", Slizzardman. This post was truly epic.

I'm 35 (better late than never), mainly a paleo-dieter (there are week ends and family meals).

I dropped weight training to embrace body weight training, which I'm a novice at, being in my 4th 6-weeks steady state cycle. I workout 4 times a week, but WOD is still out of reach at my current level.

Regarding your PWO advices, I'm a bit puzzled about three (moot) points, and now that I'm registred I'm going to ask :

1. I read you claimed to be fat adapted, but you seem to talk a lot about carbs.

What do you think of the post of Ido Portal where he claims that "the research on PWO has been done on people with a westernized diets - carb adapted and though the results indicate the need for glycogen replenishment through high GI pwo carb consumption along with a fast protein source, but for someone who has shifted his system to a low carb, higher fat diet, it will respond to a different set of rules - No need to chase your glycogen status'?

For a fat adapted trainee, are MCTs to be favored over carbs or are carbs still needed during the workout?

2. You take your pre-workout meal 1 hour before.

Gregor says at least 2 hours. So does Loren Cordain, of paleo-diet fame.

Which is best and why?

And, pre-workout wise, could you please elaborate on the possibility (or lack of, if you which) to train fasted.

I read that you are doing IF, but you don't train fasted, despite what Martin Berkan would advise.

As far as I am concerned, I notice that training fasted prevents nausea while I'm struggling with the backlever, but I could cope with it if needed.

3. You said this is not aimed at fat loss, but still it seems you are getting very lean on this protocol. Seeing those results on yourself, would you now advise this very same protocol for fat loss (maybe with less carbs post-workout) ?

Let's say someone I know is around 15-16 % and wants to cut down to 10 %.

Thank you again.

1) I was for a while. Personally, it is much easier and somewhat cheaper to be on a fluctuating plan. There are periods where I have more fat and periods where I have more carbs. I spent a couple months Having virtually no carbs and quite a bit of fat and coconut products. With no other changes I did see slow but steady leaning out. This also helped me tremendously by resetting my insulin sensitivity.

2) it depends on your pre workout meal. Their whole thing is that if you eat whole food it is going to take around 2 hours for your stomach to be empty. Personally, I have done everything from 3 mile ocean swims to heavy weight training on full stomachs and empty stomachs, and I prefer a stomach that is somewhere in the middle but I can do either. I prefer to have an ongoing trickle of nutrients as I work out. Also, my pre workout meal is mostly carbs and has little or no meat. Pre-workout meal is for fuel, and protein is not the best or cheapest way to get that fuel. A meal of 40-60g rice or sweet potato, a few grams of fat from butter or whatever, 2-3 oz of lean meat or a partial scoop of protein and a bunch of water is going to digest in a little over an hour, which means that I have a mostly empty stomach (good for quick processing of PWO meals) and energy in my blood. If I had that meal 2 hours prior I would be starving. I've done both, and I prefer 1 hour. That's just me, and for what I eat. When I occasionally have a larger meal with a bunch of meat and fat I do tend to wait longer before working out.

Also, from what I understand Martin only recommends working out in a fasted state if you are specifically trying to lose tons of body fat and do not care if you sacrifice a little lean mass in the process. For other goals he prefers to not work out fasted. I have read through a very large portion of his site and he actually has a blog post just for this somewhere on there because there were so many questions.

3. Correct, this is not specifically aimed at fat loss. However, if your total calories are coming from whole foods and are slightly below maintenance you are going to lose some body fat. This PWO nutrition I recommend maximizes your lean gains from each workout. Two very different things, and they are totally compatible.

As it so happens, I have been eating below maintenance for a long time. The consistent hard work I have done has kept me from losing too much muscle, though I did lose some. I was just under 202 lbs four days ago when I started my current mass gain cycle, which is to show how much mass you can gain over a 3 month period of time with nothing but food and whey protein. I'm already at 205, and people are starting to look at me weird because my body is changing so fast. However, that is getting off topic, but did I mention I am never sore despite working out 2-3 times per day? Sorry to tease, but I will be teaching everyone how to do what I am doing by the end of the year.

[Mark Bernacchi]

First off, I would like to add my thanks to all, and especially Slizzardman, for this great thread, but I also have a question regarding some conflicting information I stumbled across as I begin my education of training, nutrition, etc.

I just finished reading Protein Power by Michael and Mary Eades as it is one of the highly suggested books in the Recommended Reading post and there is no doubt it is an excellent resource. However, I came upon a part that conflicts with all I have read in the past and in this thread and wanted to get clarification on it.

In the discussion of growth hormone(specifically on pages 193-194 for those of you with the book) it says:

"The pulse of growth hormone released by exercise generally hits the circulation toward the end of the workout and immediately after. If you want to inhibit this growth hormone surge, all you have to do is to eat a power bar or a candy bar or drink fruit juice, as trainers often advise you to do before, during, and right after workouts in the mistaken notion that you need 'explosive, high-carbo energy" as one of these products advertises. What you're really getting is no growth hormone. Always work out on an empty stomach, don't consume anything except water during the workout, and don't eat until an hour or so after."

I have relatively little knowledge in training nutrition and would love an explanation of the conflicting information between these two points of view.

[Razz]

For health working out fasted may be a good idea. For performance it's a different deal

[Mark Bernacchi]

Thanks, that makes sense. But I am still curious about the nature of growth hormone since I have not seen much information on it before. Maybe I am overestimating the benefits of the growth hormone as I have yet to do enough research on it, but it seems that it would be highly beneficial.

What you are saying then is that the performance benefit from properly fueling for a workout will give a greater strength return than the strength return from the "surges" of growth hormone?

[Joshua Naterman]

There is some truth to that, which is why I do not have the gigantic carb loads that many people recommend. You usually see something retarded, and I mean that in the not so nice way, like 4:1 carbs to protein being recommended after workouts. You know when that is good for you? After a marathon. After a half marathon. When you have somehow nearly completely depleted glycogen reserves. That is not going to happen during a workout. I do 1:1 protein and carbs and I just have more meals. I end up having the same amount of carbs, but it is more of a trickle effect than a huge rush. It feels better, it tastes better, it never upsets my stomach and I don't get fat. I also don't get a huge insulin rush like 80g of glucose will give you, which helps keep me more sensitive to insulin.

The truth is that growth hormone and food intake do seem to be inversely related, but there is a very, very large amount of data suggesting that hormonal spikes after workouts have almost nothing to do with how much you grow. It has been suggested, and if you look at natural female body builders (who have normal female levels of testosterone) you will realize this makes sense, that because of this there are non-hormonal mechanisms at work that are responsible for protein synthesis.

Secondly, growth hormone primarily affects connective tissues. Testosterone is what affects muscle growth the most, and there's a 33% increase that lasts less than an hour. Compare that to the 600% or more increases that you get from steroids and you will realize that it makes sense that an extra 33% for that short a period of time makes no difference at all.

Hormones amplify what the body does, and high levels of added hormones have an enormous effect, but the body appears to have a non-hormonal base to how it generates new tissue. That is yet another thing that science does not understand.

However, I am now at 207 lbs, bodyfat is holding steady. I am dehydrated and underfed and I am still getting stronger on a day to day basis. Yesterday I was doing the same reps with 11% added weight from Friday's workout and it was easier than Friday was, despite being dehydrated to the point where urine was dark yellow all day. That tends to correspond to a 10-15% strength deficit. I have not been sore in almost a month.

I am eating before, during, and after the workouts and I am literally watching visible changes on a nearly workout to workout basis. This is all happening during the most stressful time in my life that I can remember.

All I am saying by sharing that information is that you HAVE to look at the real world results and not just at the science. I have never been someone who gained mass easily and now it's just a joke. I feel like I can just paste new muscle on wherever I want. What I am doing works, and it is because I completely abandoned everything, went back and took the basic facts on how our body's various systems respond to exercise and built from there a method that is based on those timelines and those response parameters. Now I feel like I have wasted most of my training life, because what took me years is taking me no time flat.

I apologize for not sharing the entire program, as that is A) still undergoing pilot testing and B) is the basis for my business. I will tell you this: I have found that the exercises we use here are far more useful to me in building overall strength and muscle than most external loading is. They are, quite simply, easier to implement with what I have developed.

In the end, you have to ask yourself: Has this been demonstrated to work for actually gaining mass and strength, or is this simply based on conjecture? If it is the second option, it does not mean it is wrong necessarily, it just means it would be irresponsible to make a solid claim on what is at best an educated guess. I have never seen anyone get as good or better performance results on the fasted workout + 1 hour delay on eating as I have on what I recommend here.

For dropping body fat, sure. It's a good idea as long as you have the money to take enough BCAA's to prevent unnecessary muscle loss, but it doesn't feel good and it is more expensive than it needs to be.

I believe in maximum results for a given investment, and I do not believe in trying to convince people they need a ton of supplements just to look decent. That's ridiculous and should be criminal.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Also, from what I understand Martin only recommends working out in a fasted state if you are specifically trying to lose tons of body fat and do not care if you sacrifice a little lean mass in the process. For other goals he prefers to not work out fasted. I have read through a very large portion of his site and he actually has a blog post just for this somewhere on there because there were so many questions.

Ah, I read this a few days ago and it was a big revelation for me. I had been training while fasting (except for about 5-7 grams of BCAA's before) and wasn't feeling particularly motivated. Yesterday and today I had some vegetables (maybe not optimal) and I felt strong during both of the entire sessions. Last week I DL'd 185 lbx1, this week I DL'd 170 lbx5! Just 15 lbs down and 5 times the volume. I also did some 115 lb SLDL's. They were hard, and I was surprised I could do them.

As it so happens, I have been eating below maintenance for a long time. The consistent hard work I have done has kept me from losing too much muscle, though I did lose some. I was just under 202 lbs four days ago when I started my current mass gain cycle, which is to show how much mass you can gain over a 3 month period of time with nothing but food and whey protein. I'm already at 205, and people are starting to look at me weird because my body is changing so fast. However, that is getting off topic, but did I mention I am never sore despite working out 2-3 times per day? Sorry to tease, but I will be teaching everyone how to do what I am doing by the end of the year.

Can hardly wait!

[nikosg]

So, quick question, what do you think of my typical PWO shake: 1 can coconut milk (13.5oz), 60g "protein" powder (made at true protein, it is a mix of whole egg, whey, casien, BCAA with extra leucine, and beef protein - in that order of percentage), 16g amazing grass superfood (2 servings), 10g creatine mono, 1 tbsp macnut oil.

I think I added it up one day and it is over 1000kcal, lol. I don't drink it all at once, but rather half right away, and the second half probably an hour later. Tons of fat and few carbs as I am mostly fat adapted, and am a leader of the anti-carb crusade (this part was for triangle)

I think that is a bit overboard.

around 30 g of protein is what the body can take in one go usually. Your having double that. Bit of a waste.... ?

And I dont think you need to worry about Casein protein, you want Fast absorption of protein after a workout, casein is very slowly absorbed.... Good for before you go to bed, to prevent your body from going into a catabolic state.

[nikosg]

and to Slizzardman - AWESOME thread.

Struggling to take it all in, so complex but ill read it aother 20 times or so

just on what i said above, do you have anything before you go to bed?

I usually finish my training at around 7 each night. Shake - dinner - more foods... (try to get the majority of my protein from whole foods, only shake i really have now is at the end of my workout and maybe before bed)

And occasionally, ive been smashing some cottage cheese with peanut butter and maybe some cinnamon aswell.

However, i rarely can as it tastes like SH*T!!! Do you have anything before bed?

[Joshua Naterman]

So, quick question, what do you think of my typical PWO shake: 1 can coconut milk (13.5oz), 60g "protein" powder (made at true protein, it is a mix of whole egg, whey, casien, BCAA with extra leucine, and beef protein - in that order of percentage), 16g amazing grass superfood (2 servings), 10g creatine mono, 1 tbsp macnut oil.

I think I added it up one day and it is over 1000kcal, lol. I don't drink it all at once, but rather half right away, and the second half probably an hour later. Tons of fat and few carbs as I am mostly fat adapted, and am a leader of the anti-carb crusade (this part was for triangle)

I think that is a bit overboard.

around 30 g of protein is what the body can take in one go usually. Your having double that. Bit of a waste.... ?

And I dont think you need to worry about Casein protein, you want Fast absorption of protein after a workout, casein is very slowly absorbed.... Good for before you go to bed, to prevent your body from going into a catabolic state.

Nick: There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to cut down on added costs you can drop everything but the whey. PWO you want that protein going in fast, and you only want the most useful protein, and whey is both fast and the most useful.

niko: There is no data that suggests such a thing. There is actually mounting data moving in the opposite direction, that your body can handle quite a bit at once without losing anything.

However, I have found that I get better results and far less fat storage when I am taking in an average of 30g every 30 minutes. I also feel a whole lot better, a ton of liquid protein at once makes me feel kind of funny.

Catabolism during sleep is a separate subject and is primarily a marketing tool. Don't believe the hype. If you're really worried, eat steak or drink casien protein or soy protein before you go to sleep. The soy is far inferior but it will last just as long and will be good for people sensitive to casein. You don't need it but if you feel better mentally then you should do it.