Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[nikosg]

not worried at all mate been making great strength progress without the pre bed snack.

Just thought i would give it a go.

Now ive got a few things to ask, but im sure i better keep re reading your first post but just one thing... im just still a little unclear, why is it so important for that 'jelly belly' hit during training?

[Joshua Naterman]

not worried at all mate been making great strength progress without the pre bed snack.

Just thought i would give it a go.

Now ive got a few things to ask, but im sure i better keep re reading your first post but just one thing... im just still a little unclear, why is it so important for that 'jelly belly' hit during training?

Jelly bellies were the first thing I used for intra-workout sugar, and they are cheap and readily accessible. These days I prefer glucose powder mixed in with my shake because there's no fructose at all, but jelly bellies are still good. Grapes work too.

You want sugar during the workout and in amounts that correspond to the level of glycolysis that you are dipping into. You don't need very much if all you're doing is sets of 2 reps, maybe 15-20g of glucose in 32 oz of water with 20-30 oz of protein. Sip between sets. This allows the body to use food protein instead of muscle tissue protein to repair damage during the workout. Your body doesn't wait, it starts healing immediately. If food isn't available, our body will just use itself for a protein source. That's not the most ideal scenario, so you have sugar and protein. Protein for raw material and sugar so that you don't deplete your stored glycogen as much. These two combine to form a powerful recovery too. You just don't have to recover as much, and you're getting what you need exactly when you need it the most!

[nikosg]

Thank you very much kind sir!! you are extremely knowledgable i must say... do you study/work in this type of field? or just personal study....

Well i guess i need to lift my game. I usually take a pre-workout supp on my heavy training days, heaps of water during the session, and during the last exercise i hit my protein shake. And of course foods etc afterwards..

So protein while you workout is a must? And glucose?

There was one line in your first post that caught my attention but i didnt get - something about sugar intake and catabolic hormones? could you possibly clarify that statement for me?

Thanks so much big guy appreciate the help

[Joshua Naterman]

No problem! The short version is simply that catabolic hormones produced in response to intense endurance exercise are quickly stopped in their tracks JUST by consuming carbs. It doesn't even take a huge amount of carbs, a normal serving of rice is enough to disrupt the negative effects. Now to me, prevention is always better than reparation. Why should we have to work extra hard to try and shuffle around an already busy schedule even more than we do just to get our endurance and strength work in? Doesn't make sense to me. Instead, just use your food to prevent the catabolism in the first place. A little protein and a moderate amount of carbs sipped through endurance training is all it takes to keep your muscles growing and protect your gains. And, of course, good post-workout nutrition.

And yes, my professional interests include the fields of exercise physiology and nutrition! I am an exercise science major (which quite honestly shouldn't mean that much, 90% of what I know about actual applied training doesn't come from any course material) and I will either be going to Osteopathy school and/or Physical Therapy school for graduate work. Either way I'm going to be doctor of something. I think it's important to have those skill sets in the applied training field. I already read the books that contain the knowledge I need for those programs, so by the time I get in it should be mostly review.

[nikosg]

would there be much difference just smashing a protein shake + jelly babies/grapes/glucose powder BEFORE a workout as compared to during? Or is there a distinct difference in benefits of having this while you workout as opposed to before?

cheers big guy.

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes, it guarantees that you're ready for maximum response to the workout starting with rep #1. It is best to have a steady trickle of protein instead of a large serving all at once. That's why burn unit victims are on a steady IV drip. There's actually a really neat study that was done in '98 or '99 that showed a steady intake of whey protein over the day in the form of 5g per hour or so was over 10x more anabolic than taking a few shakes during the day. The idea for the study was based on how quickly burn unit victims heal on that protein drip. So you COULD just walk around sipping protein water. Watered down protein isn't everyone's favorite thing, but it does work. You can feel it working. It's crazy.

I usually have a 1:1 protein shake before the workout, abut 12-15g protein plus same of carbs. That's so that there's protein and sugar in my blood starting with the very first rep. It's minimalistic and effective. You can use more, but there is always going to be a limit to what you will get use out of. I don't think anyone actually knows what those limits are, but I have found that a scoop before, a scoop during, and a scoop for each liquid PWO meal of protein is as much as I ever need and probably more. I feel much better doing that than doing more.

You should try to keep in mind that that is only around 80 grams of whey protein, but that it is accomplishing the same protein synthesis (muscle and tissue growth/repair) as 240g of plant protein, 160-ish grams of meat protein (that's over 2 lbs of meat, even if it's chicken breast) and around 120g of egg protein (something like 15 large eggs). That's why whey protein, or if you're a whole food person organic milk, is by far the best thing to consume around the workout in terms of recovery and muscle growth. You're giving the body the most efficient protein it is possible to give and you're doing it for CHEAP. 4 scoops of whey protein from a 5lb jar costs around 2 bucks, which is half the cost of the meat even at bargain bin prices. Obviously the one disadvantage is calories, but that's what other food is for!

[nikosg]

Thanks slizzardman! much appreciated.

Its not only good to know what but exactly WHY and HOW it is doing what its doing and for what reason...

Well im going to begin as of tonight this new intra workout routine for me thanks!!!

[marcusuni]

This post is so awesome, are you going to do online personal training in the future Slizz, because I think you will do really well. Ok, so I've got some glucose powder, they only had it with added vitamin C, but that should do until I can get some more. Just to confirm, I should take it during my workout with some protein, and then immediately after, and then 30 mins after that?

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes. You don't need too much, I find that 20g is plenty for me most of the time during the workout. Before isn't as big of a deal, 10-20g as well (though 20g is only if you're going to go straight into some really hardcore metcon type stuff) just to get a little energy in the blood. The protein is more important before. After I find that 1:1 protein and glucose is my favorite mix. Make sure you do that by grams and not by scoop size or you will have a very sugary drink!

[marcusuni]

So do you subscribe to the 1gram of protein per pound of bodyweight idea? What I mean is, it would be hard to get in sufficient protein in the 4 hour anabolic window to match these requirements. Maybe not if you have the four hours free after your workout, but with other things to do it would be difficult. So after the 4 hours is up, do you eat a lot after that or will what you eat in the 4 hours be enough to build muscle?

[Joshua Naterman]

Well, that's part of why it is very convenient to have protein powder with you. 3-4 scoops total is going to be 100-120g of protein, which is usually plenty during that time.

The whole 1g per lb of lean mass thing is a good question. I have seen that in a large number of reputable sources and I would assume, but do not know for a fact, that there have been different levels of protein consumption measured and that blood samples were used for each one to show the rate of protein synthesis. It would then follow, if this has been done, that levels above 1g per lb of lean body mass do not show a further increase in protein synthesis rate.

I don't really worry about the 1 lb per body mass thing, because you have to be specific about what kind of protein you are using. Not all proteins are equal, which is why whey is the ideal protein. Each gram can be used to make more body tissue than any other protein, and that's why it works so well when used appropriately. It is very possible that you might need 2-3g per lb of body weight to get the same effect if you are using soy protein or random vegetable proteins. Because of that, you are very right to question the meaning of that number. It is most likely a number that has more grounding in anecdotal evidence than scientific research because such research designs could get very pricey. You'd have to keep track of everyone and see what happens over short and long periods of time, like days and weeks. You'd have to have them on lockdown so that you can have 100% control over what they eat. It's not an easy thing to nail down.

[Eddie Stelling]

Yes. You don't need too much, I find that 20g is plenty for me most of the time during the workout. Before isn't as big of a deal, 10-20g as well (though 20g is only if you're going to go straight into some really hardcore metcon type stuff) just to get a little energy in the blood. The protein is more important before.

Slizz, having said this do you no longer recommend taking in some slow acting carbs (sweet potatoe) with veggies and some meat about 1-1.5 hours before your workout? Lately I have been eating this pre workout meal and then immediately before the workout have one scoop of whey protien (24g), and every hour have another scoop. Then immediately post work out have 24g scoop with a sweet potatoe, 15 min later another 24g of protien. Then I eat only meat and veggies until bed.

I know a white potatoe would be better for my immediate post WO carb. I also understand that i need to be getting that glucose along with my protien during the WO, but I don't have any glucose powder at the moment. If I were to start using glucose powder would I still eat the potatoes before and after or eliminate them? Do you see any other things that are wrong with what I am doing? Thanks!

[Rafael David]

Dude, rice works nice too...

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes. You don't need too much, I find that 20g is plenty for me most of the time during the workout. Before isn't as big of a deal, 10-20g as well (though 20g is only if you're going to go straight into some really hardcore metcon type stuff) just to get a little energy in the blood. The protein is more important before.

Slizz, having said this do you no longer recommend taking in some slow acting carbs (sweet potatoe) with veggies and some meat about 1-1.5 hours before your workout? Lately I have been eating this pre workout meal and then immediately before the workout have one scoop of whey protien (24g), and every hour have another scoop. Then immediately post work out have 24g scoop with a sweet potatoe, 15 min later another 24g of protien. Then I eat only meat and veggies until bed.

I know a white potatoe would be better for my immediate post WO carb. I also understand that i need to be getting that glucose along with my protien during the WO, but I don't have any glucose powder at the moment. If I were to start using glucose powder would I still eat the potatoes before and after or eliminate them? Do you see any other things that are wrong with what I am doing? Thanks!

I absolutely advocate whole food meals before the workout. It sounds to me like your approach is a fairly good adaptation of the general idea. It seems easy to follow, and that's the most important thing. I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. Definitely still eat the potatoes! If you find your eyes are becoming sensitive to light then just swap some of the sweet potato for white potato. Rice is also great if you like it, and honestly pasta is fine too unless you have some sort of horrible gluten allergy.

If you aren't going through some really, really intense anaerobic-2 threshold training (anaerobic endurance) then you probably don't need to worry about carbs in your pre-workout protein. You will still benefit if you are sipping a carb & protein drink, but you will need to tailor the carbs to your workload. There are no hard and fast rules for that, but the more endurance work you are doing the more sugar you will benefit from. There's nothing wrong with jelly beans when you don't have glucose powder.

[marcusuni]

Yeh sometimes I get the 1gram per pound and sometimes I don't, I'm going to stick with this protein and glucose blend for a while because it seems to be the right way to go. I just wanted to say thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else does too.

[Eddie Stelling]

Thanks alot man! I really appreciate your patience with all of us! At first it seems overwhelming but when you break it down and keep it simple it's not so bad. I am shooting for the simple ball park idea of it all, so I am glad to hear I am on the right track! I figured if I can nail down the general idea, and make it easy, then I can tweak from there and continue to improve it.

but you will need to tailor the carbs to your workload

I understand what you mean by this, but I am still confused on what "set" of carbs you tailor? Based on your response, the 1 hour pre-workout meal carbs should never change based on activity, so are you referring to the immediate pre-workout carbs, the mid workout carbs, the immediate post workout carbs, or all?

Also, what "set" of carbs do you reduce to lean out this whole plan? So, say I have been following this to a tee for performance and wanted to lean out and rid any body fat gained, what carbs would I reduce?

P.S. Just thought you should know that I have gained about 6 lbs since late February (162lb to 168lb) and I am stronger and leaner than I was before gaining that weight!! It's all muscle! My old lifting buddy saw me a couple of wknds ago and was shocked to see what I looked like! Thanks again bro! You are getting very good at relaying the information in a manner that can be easily understood.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a good question. I mean the amount of carbs in the drink you sip between sets. That's the one you want to control. When you're having a meal, it needs to be big enough to give you 40-60g of carbs but small enough to where you don't feel tired or full when you work out. Well, when I say "full" I mean too full to work out properly.

You are very welcome, I try very hard to always find ways to explain things as simply as possible. That tends to be a lot harder than speaking in academic language!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Yes. You don't need too much, I find that 20g is plenty for me most of the time during the workout. Before isn't as big of a deal, 10-20g as well (though 20g is only if you're going to go straight into some really hardcore metcon type stuff) just to get a little energy in the blood. The protein is more important before.

Slizz, having said this do you no longer recommend taking in some slow acting carbs (sweet potatoe) with veggies and some meat about 1-1.5 hours before your workout? Lately I have been eating this pre workout meal and then immediately before the workout have one scoop of whey protien (24g), and every hour have another scoop. Then immediately post work out have 24g scoop with a sweet potatoe, 15 min later another 24g of protien. Then I eat only meat and veggies until bed.

I know a white potatoe would be better for my immediate post WO carb. I also understand that i need to be getting that glucose along with my protien during the WO, but I don't have any glucose powder at the moment. If I were to start using glucose powder would I still eat the potatoes before and after or eliminate them? Do you see any other things that are wrong with what I am doing? Thanks!

I absolutely advocate whole food meals before the workout. It sounds to me like your approach is a fairly good adaptation of the general idea. It seems easy to follow, and that's the most important thing. I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. Definitely still eat the potatoes! If you find your eyes are becoming sensitive to light then just swap some of the sweet potato for white potato. Rice is also great if you like it, and honestly pasta is fine too unless you have some sort of horrible gluten allergy.

If you aren't going through some really, really intense anaerobic-2 threshold training (anaerobic endurance) then you probably don't need to worry about carbs in your pre-workout protein. You will still benefit if you are sipping a carb & protein drink, but you will need to tailor the carbs to your workload. There are no hard and fast rules for that, but the more endurance work you are doing the more sugar you will benefit from. There's nothing wrong with jelly beans when you don't have glucose powder.

Slizzardman, Ido is against eating potatoes. Can you explain why he would be and why you advocate eating them?

Thanks!

[Razz]

The thing against white potatoes is two fold:

Saponins in the peel may irritate the gut lining and compromise gut health

They have a relatively high glycemic index compared to sweet potatoes.

[Joshua Naterman]

Potatoes are cheap and easy to prepare and carry along. You cook them, cool them, and carry them where you go.

I hate to say this, but if someone can't figure out how to cut the potato in half and not eat the skin then I don't know how to help them. As an aside, small levels of toxins tend to increase the body's immune function. One potato peel isn't going to hurt anyone. Also, when you expose potatoes to high heat most of the harmful chemicals get destroyed. Not all, but most. So, even if you're too lazy to skin your potato you don't need to sweat it.

Second, the high GI is a good thing immediately PWO. You don't need to cram down a giant potato, fist sized pieces are perfect. One per meal. As always, it is up to the athlete and/or their coach to figure out how many grams of carbs they need. The more anaerobic endurance you've done, the more grams you're going to need. Obviously there is no way to accurately gauge fist size online, but you can cut an approximate chunk and see how much it is by weighing it. 100g is 21g of carbs and 1 lb is about 96g of carbs. Those two measurements should help everyone get reasonably accurate chunks of potato should they choose to use potatoes.

Guys, practical and easy to use solutions are just as important as knowing what is perfect. It is more important that you get what you need and that you like what you eat. The more work you do the more you will benefit from an initial dose of faster carbs like potatoes. They are slower than glucose by a little bit, maybe 10%. That's pretty close. Even having a bite between sets would be a good substitute if for some reason that's what someone wanted to do.

I don't care whether you like rice or potatoes or pasta or whatever. Get what you will eat. If you won't stick with something there is no point in doing it. Just getting those carbs when you need them is a large part of the battle.

[Joshua Naterman]

Sweet potatoes are fine too, it's all about what you like. Nutritionally speaking they are far superior to the other carbs I list here, but there are a few issues. 1, money. 2, eye sensitivity to light. Sweet potatoes are the most expensive of the carb sources I list at the bottom of this post, gram for gram in carbs. Rice is usually the cheapest when you buy 20-40lb bags.

If you just got done with a football game or a 30-60 minute nonstop practice or workout, you're going to benefit from having some of that white potato. You don't need it, but if you like it that is when you want it. Post workout, especially after high endurance workouts. You have to replace what you've burned off.

Eating too many sweet potatoes can make your eyes sensitive to light. I have been through that first hand. That's why you need options. These are the cheapest options that I know of: Pasta, rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes. Those are the cheapest and easiest to prepare sources of carbs you can buy. You need vegetables, but they are not a significant source of energy which is why they are not a part of my PWO carb discussion. You should have veggies, especially lots of dark green stuff if you can stomach it. Some can not, and in that case just have a little bit but suck it up if you can. They help.

[Eddie Stelling]

Thanks again Slizz!!!

@ Patrick Smith, I'm fairly certain that I have read that Ido is fat adapted. Meaning his body runs on fat. Therefore, he doesn't chase glycogen replenishment, he fuels his body with fat. So, where Slizzardman is reccomending carbs, Ido would reccomend fat. That could also be why he was saying no potatoes.

[Joshua Naterman]

That is a big part of it. IF you are fat-adapted then you're going to want coconut fat after the workout. There is virtually NO research done on fat-adapted people and the role fat plays in anaerobic metabolism. It is generally accepted that fat cannot be processed into energy without oxygen, so either something is changing or somehow the fat is being stored as glycogen in high percentages, which would turn nutrition on it's head. It is unlikely, but possible. The most likely scenario is that the body is getting better at turning protein into glycogen, but it is impossible to really say.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Very interesting. How do you become fat adapted?

[Joshua Naterman]

You start eating fat instead of carbs. It will suck for 2-3 weeks maybe, but then your body will have upregulated fat-burning enzymes and you will be able to function off of dietary fat quite well. You can try to make a gradual transition, but I don't know how that will work. When I did it I just went cold turkey. It definitely took a few weeks to be up to full speed but I didn't feel terrible for more than a few days. I stayed on a mostly fat and protein diet for a few months and it completely reset my insulin sensitivity, which was great. I tried it to see how it felt and it felt fine but it was more complicated and not quite as practical as a moderate diet.