Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Razz]

To me adapting to around 75-100g of paleo carbs has been the best thing. Feels so damn good. Now with the biosig I can get even lower bf% and start adding some more carbs PWO.

And about the potatoes, don't go crazy thinking they're not healthy. If you're still drinking/eating dairy or grains those are the things to remove first. At the same time, yes if you can't peel a potato you're pretty damn dum and you deserve those saponins

[Eddie Stelling]

I agree with that Razz! I am loving the paleo carb style diet! I feel so damn good. The fat adapted thing works great for overweight people trying to jump start some fat loss, but it is hard as hell to do in terms of how practical it is. I tried it for a few days and I found myself just not eating because it was too hard to find things I could eat unless I took a cooler of pre cooked meat everywhere I went. Much easier to be able to eat veggies and potatoes (around your workouts) in your diet. I am doing meat, eggs (in the morning), and veggies for all meals and eating sweet potatoes around my workouts as slizzardman has discussed and loving it! Just watch out when you have a cheat meal, aka pizza, you are gonna be on the toilet for awhile!! Totally worth it though.

[Falcon]

Slizzardman, can I use maltodextrin instead of glucose as part of my post workout carbs?

I'm having 2x30g of whey and 6 eggs as my post workout protein, is it enough, im eating it in 4 meals, every meal with some fruit and lots of vegetalbes, and about 500ml of water.

I would replace some of the post workout carbs with 2x40-50g of maltodextrin, I can get maltodextrin relatively easy and cheap, but pure glucose is about 3 times more expensive here :?

[Donar]

Falcon,

weird that maltrodextrin is so much cheaper than glucose. I'm not sure which one is better, but I don't think there's a huge difference. I'm curious what Slizzardman thinks!

Anyways, I don't know what you're paying, but you may want to consider buying glucose/maltodextrin in bulk.

Here are two websites that both ship to the Czech Republic:

www.bulkpowders.co.uk

http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/product.php/250/0/dextrose

http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/product.ph ... ltodextrin

www.myprotein.com

http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/maltodextrin

http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/dextrose

[Rafael David]

If you're still drinking/eating dairy or grains those are the things to remove first.

and the calcium from milk/dairy? oh, and as far as I know, rice is not that bad, until Poliquin eat ... :|

[Joshua Naterman]

There isn't much of a difference in function if you're getting short-chain maltodextrins. They won't taste as good, since they aren't straight sugar, but I am all about getting the most for your money! Don't waste your money on waxy maize starches unless you can get them for the same price or you are a serious endurance athlete.

Long chain maltodextrins are much lower GI and so are not absorbed as quickly, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that will make.

Razz is right, if you are drinking store brand milk it's a good idea to cut that out. For anyone who is wondering where to get calcium from, there are two things to consider: One, Broccoli actually has similar amounts by weight but it is absorbed at a 52% rate compared to milk's 33% or so. SO you actually get more calcium from broccoli than milk!

Second, if you have a reasonably alkaline diet (citrus fruits, lots of veggies, especially greens) your body won't need to leech the calcium from your bones to alkalize the blood. This, all by itself, reduces dietary calcium requirements. Incidentally, high levels of chlorophyll can eliminate anemia. Dark green veggies have tons of chlorophyll.

[Larry Roseman]

Second, if you have a reasonably alkaline diet (citrus fruits, lots of veggies, especially greens) your body won't need to leech the calcium from your bones to alkalize the blood. This, all by itself, reduces dietary calcium requirements. Incidentally, high levels of chlorophyll can eliminate anemia. Dark green veggies have tons of chlorophyll.

I'm a little skeptical about the calculation that acidic foods turn out predominantly alkaline. It very well may be true.

Still, a temporary buffering response is likely, until the food is actually digested and the ash is released.

I know that a few stuides have measured the net impact.

What's important for althletes to know is that the body maintains a strict range of blood PH. It is normally slightly alkaline,

about 7.4. CO2-bicarbonate buffering is the main way he body controls blood PH. It's performed by the renal tubules (kidney),

and its effect is almost immediate. This has nothing to do with calcium though.

Skeletal calcium carbonate buffering is not a big factor unless you have long-term metabolic acidosis. However if you have low blood calcium, then yes, calcium will be pulled from the bone into the blood and more will be absorbed from food when it's available to rebuild the bones. So yeah for sure, drink your milk or broccoli juice daily Veggies and fruit are great, but outside of those with calcium, vitamin D and phosphorus, impact on calcium levels are negligible.

[Tarun Suri]

Second, if you have a reasonably alkaline diet (citrus fruits, lots of veggies, especially greens) your body won't need to leech the calcium from your bones to alkalize the blood. This, all by itself, reduces dietary calcium requirements. Incidentally, high levels of chlorophyll can eliminate anemia. Dark green veggies have tons of chlorophyll.

I thought it was magnesium that fought for the same receptor sites as calcium and that absorption of magnesium allows the body to require less calcium.

[Larry Roseman]

Second, if you have a reasonably alkaline diet (citrus fruits, lots of veggies, especially greens) your body won't need to leech the calcium from your bones to alkalize the blood. This, all by itself, reduces dietary calcium requirements. Incidentally, high levels of chlorophyll can eliminate anemia. Dark green veggies have tons of chlorophyll.

I thought it was magnesium that fought for the same receptor sites as calcium and that absorption of magnesium allows the body to require less calcium.

We need magnesium. We need calcium. Having more of one doesn't reduce the need for the other.

Mag is mildly antagonist to cal, because they do complete for some of the same sites. This makes

calcium transport less effective though, not more. They have different impacts in the cell.

[Tarun Suri]

Second, if you have a reasonably alkaline diet (citrus fruits, lots of veggies, especially greens) your body won't need to leech the calcium from your bones to alkalize the blood. This, all by itself, reduces dietary calcium requirements. Incidentally, high levels of chlorophyll can eliminate anemia. Dark green veggies have tons of chlorophyll.

I thought it was magnesium that fought for the same receptor sites as calcium and that absorption of magnesium allows the body to require less calcium.

We need magnesium. We need calcium. Having more of one doesn't reduce the need for the other.

Mag is mildly antagonist to cal, because they do complete for some of the same sites. This makes

calcium transport less effective though, not more. They have different impacts in the cell.

I'm going to need to reread Robb Wolf's book when I get a chance. I feel as though I'm mixing things up, or forgetting how they actually work.

[Larry Roseman]

I thought it was magnesium that fought for the same receptor sites as calcium and that absorption of magnesium allows the body to require less calcium.

We need magnesium. We need calcium. Having more of one doesn't reduce the need for the other.

Mag is mildly antagonist to cal, because they do complete for some of the same sites. This makes

calcium transport less effective though, not more. They have different impacts in the cell.

I'm going to need to reread Robb Wolf's book when I get a chance. I feel as though I'm mixing things up, or forgetting how they actually work.

I prefer to read textbooks for this type of information.

It's fairly hard to eat more mag than cal though.

It's just more abundant in nature. And unless you're pregnant you probably get enough of both in a moderate diet

[Joshua Naterman]

Second, if you have a reasonably alkaline diet (citrus fruits, lots of veggies, especially greens) your body won't need to leech the calcium from your bones to alkalize the blood. This, all by itself, reduces dietary calcium requirements. Incidentally, high levels of chlorophyll can eliminate anemia. Dark green veggies have tons of chlorophyll.

I'm a little skeptical about the calculation that acidic foods turn out predominantly alkaline. It very well may be true.

Still, a temporary buffering response is likely, until the food is actually digested and the ash is released.

I know that a few stuides have measured the net impact.

What's important for althletes to know is that the body maintains a strict range of blood PH. It is normally slightly alkaline,

about 7.4. CO2-bicarbonate buffering is the main way he body controls blood PH. It's performed by the renal tubules (kidney),

and its effect is almost immediate. This has nothing to do with calcium though.

Skeletal calcium carbonate buffering is not a big factor unless you have long-term metabolic acidosis. However if you have low blood calcium, then yes, calcium will be pulled from the bone into the blood and more will be absorbed from food when it's available to rebuild the bones. So yeah for sure, drink your milk or broccoli juice daily Veggies and fruit are great, but outside of those with calcium, vitamin D and phosphorus, impact on calcium levels are negligible.

If you spend some time reading online you will find that it is 100% true. acidity outside the body is irrelevant. You actually NEED more acid in the stomach, the ideal pH range is somewhere between 2.2 and 3. It is essentially impossible to get the pH lower than that and if it gets higher enzymes change their shape and can not interact with nutrients, which means your body can't separate the minerals from the biological components, which means you can't properly absorb either. That's how it works in plain english.

As for the metal absorption rates, you have to remember that if it is a metal it is going to be absorbed at the very beginning of the small intestine, in an area that is .25 inches long. That's about 2/3 of a centimeter. Think about that. If you are consuming more than that surface area can handle you are just going to poop it out. The primary inhibition comes from the physical inability to absorb more than a certain amount at any one time. This is why, especially with metals like calcium and magnesium, you have to have smaller doses more often. You can't get around the physical limitations of surface area. Things don't just sit there waiting in line, the intestines are constantly moving things through. If it can't be absorbed before it has passed the absorption site, it won't be absorbed at all. For dietary metals that is a very small window.

intracellular mineral interactions are really complex and I don't suggest that anyone try too hard to learn that without professional guidance. I don't even understand the whole thing, but remember this: Even though minerals are typically measured as ratios of one to another in pairs, minerals outside that pairing can be responsible for poor utilization. It is not as simple as supplement bottles make it seem.

[Joshua Naterman]

As an aside, while you may enjoy textbooks you should start looking at the dates of the references. They are old. Really, really old for the most part. Nutrition is changing multiple times a year, and textbooks simply can not keep up. It isn't cost effective. If textbooks are your main source of information you are going to be behind. I am not bashing them, you can learn a lot from reading textbooks, but you need to be reading blogs and participating in forums so that you hear about new research and can stay more up to date. Of course, subscribing to professional journals also helps, as does monthly pubmed searching.

[Cole Dano]

What blogs and forums do you frequent Slizz?

[Joshua Naterman]

This place is pretty good since we have so many people talking about this study or that, I like peak performance even though i don't always agree 100% with their take on things (which probably comes from a completely different focus, endurance vs strength/speed) and honestly I get on pubmed and just start searching and reading. Other than that, I end up bouncing all over the place off of google searches and sometimes that nets some good info, though many times it is just a dead end. It feels like it is getting harder to find information in a way.

[Larry Roseman]

As an aside, while you may enjoy textbooks you should start looking at the dates of the references. They are old. Really, really old for the most part. Nutrition is changing multiple times a year, and textbooks simply can not keep up. It isn't cost effective. If textbooks are your main source of information you are going to be behind. I am not bashing them, you can learn a lot from reading textbooks, but you need to be reading blogs and participating in forums so that you hear about new research and can stay more up to date. Of course, subscribing to professional journals also helps, as does monthly pubmed searching.

Yes, that is a good point. There is new research coming out on a daily basis.

How it fits into the known facts, or knowing if it challenges the facts, is the tricky part.

Personally I don't have time to determine this, it takes years really for a pattern

to emerge, so I wait for the consensus to develop, and this is often reflected in new editions of textbooks.

In regards to Mag and Cal, my reading of RandomHavoc was that he was referring to

muscle cell receptors. If he was referring to transport through the intestine

cells, enterocytes, then it was my mistake. But as far as I can tell, there is no

magnisium competition issue for calcium during absorbtion, which occurs mostly in the duodenum (though not exclusively). Phosphorus will generally reduce absorbtion, MCTs will generally increase it, as will other bodily hormones affect it.

This is basic science. New studies are unlikely to overturn it. Rob Wolf is unlikely to overturn it.

It's not to say there isn't a lot that can be gleaned from studies and blogs, but they

rarely provide enough information to get a basic understaanding and a complete picture.

Regarding alkalization, I may be missing something - if so I'd like to know what.

Here's the rub, in my mind at least. Blood PH is maintained very, very close to 7.4, which is slightly alkaline.

If it's a tenth or two too high or low very long we don't do well. We'll get sick, very sick.

The body doesn't want to have more alkaline or more acid blood.

It does everything it can to buffer changes to blood PH.

It matains the hydrogen ion balance by buffering (soaking up or releasing H+) it doesn't use acid to fight alkali or visa vera.

If there are minerals that are somehow alkalysing the blood, that aren't neccessary, they will be excreted.

I'm not aware of how this mineral "ash" can help the body's buffering systems that are already working fine.

The acid-base balance area of body chemistry is one of the most complicated, so somebody probably has it wrong.

It could be me, or maybe not.

[nikosg]

quick question guys...

may have been answered i probably missed it in this thread somewhere....

but when you are talkig about fat/carb adapted individuals what exactly is meant? is this a genetic trait or something that is accomplished by the way you eat?

cheers!

Niko

[Joshua Naterman]

Niko: fat adaptation is something you have to do, it's not something you're born with. You just have to eat a certain way for a long time, so that the body can adjust its enzymes to the diet.

Future: I have no idea what havoc actually meant, and I think you are right about what you think he meant. I just figured I would clear up the basics. You are absolutely right, appropriate levels of mag and cal won't interfere with each other at the duodenum and at the cellular level magnesium helps the "calcium pump" pick up the free calcium back into the muscle cells.

However, and I don't remember the exact numbers, if you have like 1000 mg of calcium and 1000 mg of magnesium at the same time, you are not going to absorb all of that. There is a set mg level of total metals that can be absorbed at any one feeding. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but that's why even complementary metals need to be taken in multiple smaller doses to get them all in the system and not be wasting money.

As far as the acids go, consider also that citric acid is literally an energy substrate. It's what our body creates and uses in the Krebs cycle aka the Citric Acid cycle. Citric acid from fruits gets used as energy as well as helping to normalize stomach pH. Acid/alkaline levels in body tissues are not related to the external qualities of foods, they are related to the metabolic byproducts of food metabolism. That is where everyone gets things backwards. Does that make sense?

[Larry Roseman]

Niko: fat adaptation is something you have to do, it's not something you're born with. You just have to eat a certain way for a long time, so that the body can adjust its enzymes to the diet.

Future: I have no idea what havoc actually meant, and I think you are right about what you think he meant. I just figured I would clear up the basics. You are absolutely right, appropriate levels of mag and cal won't interfere with each other at the duodenum and at the cellular level magnesium helps the "calcium pump" pick up the free calcium back into the muscle cells.

As far as the acids go, consider also that citric acid is literally an energy substrate. It's what our body creates and uses in the Krebs cycle aka the Citric Acid cycle. Citric acid from fruits gets used as energy as well as helping to normalize stomach pH. Acid/alkaline levels in body tissues are not related to the external qualities of foods, they are related to the metabolic byproducts of food metabolism. That is where everyone gets things backwards. Does that make sense?

When it comes sports performance and nutrition I will defer to you Slizz. This is more of a general understanding thing

and not really on the main topic of this thread. Not really relavent to performance, unless we have defiency of mag or cal, which

is unlikely. My understanding about the two is that Mag will compete with Cal to get into the cell. This is a good thing because having a deficency of Mag can lead to Cal overload inside the cell. However, Mag will help Cal get out of the cell interior when it isn't needed, using a "Pump" to overcome the gradiant. This is explained pretty simply and well in this magnisium site

http://www.mgwater.com/schroll.shtml

Calcium overload and calcium antagonismFor a long time it has been known, that under cellular potassium magnesium deficiency a calcium overload of the cell will take place.

This alternating behaviour of magnesium to calcium is called calcium antagonism and relates back to the fundamental research of Hans Selye in Montreal and his counterpart Albrecht Fleckenstein in Freiburg.

Another very essential experience in this field was that cellular calcium overload can be reversed again with sufficient magnesium competitively. Magnesium therefore is called the physiologic calcium antagonist according to this mutual relation between calcium and magnesium.

The Ca pump and the Na/Ca-exchangeThere are two possibilities for elimination of calcium out of the cell, but unfortunately both are impaired by magnesium deficiency: this is the calcium pump and the sodium/calcium exchange.

Regarding the alkalization issue, will try to look into it further. PH varies radically across the body. Muscle PH is of major importance for us, more so than blood, which is mostly beyond our control.

Edit:

Three is no scientific or medical basis for using the alkalinity/acidity of food in dietary choices. It seems to be a myth to me.

Check out:

http://www.spasmodictorticollis.org/inf ... .cfm?id=31

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... oral2.html

There will there be momentary fluctions in PH. But these are overshadowed by major corrective processes.

The first link does point out some benefits of the "alkaline" diet though, even if it doesn't work the way its intended.

Citric acid cycle occurs in the Mitochondria. Ph can be a factor when it comes to transport of pyruvate and citrate into the mitochondria but this is at the mitochondrial membrane level and controlled at the atomic level practically, involving many additional factors. There is deep chemistry involved - over my head. But if people find eating certain foods helps or hurts their health and/or performance, I would continue eating/avoiding them. Hanging their success on specific biochemical processes is good for the imagination mainly.

[Khassera]

Slizz: Not so quick Q!

I'm starting a fat-loss regimen this coming weekend. It'll take as long as it will to take me down to 8% bodyfat (currently about 12-15% at 185lbs).

The way I'm planning to do it is following a pure paleo (with the exception of whey on workout days) approach. It worked like a charm last time I did it, so I assume nothing's changed. This is only because I'm not all too good at counting my calories. Going pure paleo will limit my food consumption greatly due to the fact that the foods I'll allow myself are extremely satiating (lean beef steak with broccoli, for instance) and I'm also doing 16h fasts during the day.

ALSO: I would time the whey so I'll take BCAA preworkout, sip whey during the workout and end the workout with a PWO drink of whey. This would amount to about 50g of whey + the BCAAs.

Where I would love your insight is whether or not I should train fasted. I've gathered that you're not too keen with advising people to train fasted (meaning of course the preworkout BCAA ingestion, seems like a no-brainer to NEVER train TOTALLY fasted).

My workouts will be a lot like the Killroy70 template, but I'm going to add 2 "cardio" session per week. In the first I will do 4 mins of a high intensity interval type of kettlebelling, and in the last of the week I'll do something like sprinting or jumproping for 4 mins and a lighter finisher of about 10 mins total. This would conclude my training for the week, and I would eat about 800g of paleo carbs during this day and the day following.

All in all this would look a lot like a cyclical ketogenic without the emphasis on ketosis. I might drift into it (I'm sure my carbs for the week will stay way below 50g a day) and after the last workout of the week (the hardest) I will emphasize eating carbs from sweet- and white potatoes.

Does this sound totally retarded? If I want to lean down like crazy without losing a ton of muscle, I hear the cyclical ketogenic is the way to go. The problem is although I have the integrity and the discipline to go for it, I'm still unsure as to how critical the workout style related to the diet is. I would love to keep my habit of doing the WODs, but is it enough? I mean, the original plan called for a four-day split. That's something I'd never dream of doing. I can't stand going a full week without training a specific part of the body, so I'm currently using a two-day split (Pushing, pulling) and it's working great. I am, however, "bulking up" by your recommendations with the glucose powder, the preworkout meals and the protein intake.

So basically again: I'm thinking I'll change nothing with the meal frequency you recommend other than breaking my fast after the 16h is up with the preworkout meal (excluding the carbs/using only green veggies as carbs).

Does this sound in any way doable? I'm sorry for the long post. But my idea in a nutshell: Lose fat as STEADY as possible. I don't have a timeframe, so the slower the better, right? Preserves muscle better?

Anyways, it'd be great if someone of better understanding could share some knowledge on at least one or two points

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a lot to take in. It should be fine, I mean you're basically doing a lean gains protocol. I think it is important to have BCAAs immediately before training if nothing else, and you may want to play with just having protein and no glucose in the workout sip shake. I don't know that cutting the glucose would make much of a difference on resistance sessions, but in the cardio session I would cut it and train fasted with the exception of BCAAs.

I think Razz will be able to give you some pretty good ideas at this point too. He now has access to a knowledge set that I currently do not.

As long as you are consuming essentially ALL slow carbs, meaning veggies and sweet potatoes and such, you really don't even need to worry so much about being low carb. Caffeine or better yet an actual fat loss pill will be a good idea 30-40 minutes pre-cardio and pre-workout. Especially cardio though. Caffeine is the main ingredient, and it works.

If fat loss is the desired primary goal then yes, you should train fasted and just have BCAA first. No glucose during or after cardio workouts. Just slow carbs after. I would still use some glucose for your first PWO meal but outside of that just slow carbs.

[Rafael David]

Slizz, some time ago I had my best results with egg white powder, is extremely cheap and good quality, but I must have some intolerance and this generated a lot of gases, then stopped and looked for other sources of protein. Do you know something that reduces the gases or should I blame all my family tree? :|

[Tarun Suri]

I believe I may have misinterpreted what Robb Wolf said: "Calcium and Magnesium work synergistically in the body, and if our magnesium intake is high, our calcium needs dramatically decrease". He goes on the in Supplements chapter to explain about how magnesium helps the osteoblasts formation for bones, and such, so I can see how magnesium complements calcium in that regard.

However, I knew that magnesium competes for the same absorption mechanisms from this page I read a while ago: http://paleodiet.com/losspts.txt, in enumeration 5. Maybe I'm taking this out of context?

[Larry Roseman]

I believe I may have misinterpreted what Robb Wolf said: "Calcium and Magnesium work synergistically in the body, and if our magnesium intake is high, our calcium needs dramatically decrease". He goes on the in Supplements chapter to explain about how magnesium helps the osteoblasts formation for bones, and such, so I can see how magnesium complements calcium in that regard.

However, I knew that magnesium competes for the same absorption mechanisms from this page I read a while ago: http://paleodiet.com/losspts.txt, in enumeration 5. Maybe I'm taking this out of context?

What is the context of your concern? Do you suspect that you're not getting enough calcium and wish to have magnsium instead?

[Joshua Naterman]

Slizz, some time ago I had my best results with egg white powder, is extremely cheap and good quality, but I must have some intolerance and this generated a lot of gases, then stopped and looked for other sources of protein. Do you know something that reduces the gases or should I blame all my family tree? :|

Eggs apparently have quite a bit of sulfer in them, and this causes the unreasonably powerful flatulence in some, especially when egg is the only protein that causes this. People across the world agree that having a lot of egg protein gives smelly farts, //end of line.

Things to try if you are set on egg protein (or if protein in general gives you farts): Capsule (NOT tablet) enzyme blends and Betaine HCL to restore enzyme and acid levels in the stomach. Also, probiotics like Kefir or the capsules if you trust that more.

Homemade kefir is by far the strongest and most cost effective, it's a good idea to learn how to do that. All you need are glass jars and decent milk. You make a mix of 1/4 plain kefir( I recommend buying Bazarny kefir for best taste) and 3/4 milk, preferably whole but it doesn't really matter THAT much as long as it isn't skim or lactase. I am not sure if lactase will work since the cultures use the lactose for food directly. Anyways, you put the mix in a cabinet and shake it 1-2x per day. When it gets noticeably thicker it is done. It will smell like old socks. If the lids are on tightly it will also be carbonated, just like beer. Kind of neat, you can't get it in the store that way. If you don't like carbonated kefir, which is DEFINITELY different, just leave the lid on very loosely.

You can use your homemade blend as a continuation source 2-3 times before you should start over fresh. To know if anything bad is growing, look for colors. Anything that is not white is bad.

Things to not worry about: the clear separating from the white. This will happen, and this is why you have to shake or stir your brewing kefir 1-2 times a day. I have found that it takes 5-6 days to get a good strong kefir.

Anyways, those two suggestions (acid + enzymes and probiotics) should elimitate digestive problems. I have had no gas at all regardless of protein intake since having run myself through a very strict 3 month regimen of this, and I haven't had any for many months and my digestion is still far superior to what it was. This is worth doing.

Note: If you choose to brew your own kefir, you assume all risk. I have never had any problems, but that does not mean it is impossible for things to go wrong. Keep your stuff clean and you should have no issues. If you're nervous about it, just buy the cheapest plain kefir from the farmer's market. It'll cost you something like 50 cents a day at the most.