Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Donar]

Things to try if you are set on egg protein (or if protein in general gives you farts): Capsule (NOT tablet) enzyme blends and Betaine HCL to restore enzyme and acid levels in the stomach.

Why not tablets?

Great post, thank you!

[Joshua Naterman]

You're welcome!

Tablets just don't release fast enough. I have left them in water for over 2 hours with minimal degradation, which is 100% unacceptable. if you put a pill that is designed for stomach absorption in water for 15-20 minutes and it doesn't completely dissolve its worthless because it won't dissolve before it leaves the stomach. There are USP standards for this stuff, and the maximum allowable time is 30 minutes. The capsules pretty much all dissolve in minutes, which is what you need for this stuff.

[Donar]

You're welcome!

Tablets just don't release fast enough. I have left them in water for over 2 hours with minimal degradation, which is 100% unacceptable. if you put a pill that is designed for stomach absorption in water for 15-20 minutes and it doesn't completely dissolve its worthless because it won't dissolve before it leaves the stomach. There are USP standards for this stuff, and the maximum allowable time is 30 minutes. The capsules pretty much all dissolve in minutes, which is what you need for this stuff.

Thank you, again!

What brand was this?

I just bought Now Foods Super Enzymes 180 Tablets :oops: I am going to put them in water and see if they dissolve.

/edit:

One tablet took about three hours to dissolve completely :cry: I'll try the tablets, but I'll definitely order capsules next time.

[Falcon]

Slizzardman, I see you're really expert on nutrition here, could you please help me with my nutrition? Just have a quick look and say if its ok, or not. I've currently bought creatine and dextrose in addition to my whey shakes, and I'm pretty confused :? when to take them and if its enough, I'm planning to take them like this:

Morning: 25g whey + 5g creatine (what about glucose here to spike insulin?)

pre workout (30s before warmup): 15g dextrose

during workout: 15g of glucose, 15g whey, sipping between sets

post workout: 40g glucose, 5g creatine, 30g whey... 30 min after that another shake w/o creatine, 25g whey, 30g glucose.

Or should I take shake, then solid food, then shake and then again solid food?

After that 2 meals with veggies and about 25-30g of solid protein (meat or eggs), and some fruits.

Of course I'm aware that I need to drink enough water.

Overall its about 120-140g of protein daily, and 125g of glucose (not counting fructose or carbs from veggies)...

I'm about 65kg (+-145lbs)

The question is simple, is it enough for my size? Or is it too much?

Tips appriciated from ANYONE. Thank You

[nikosg]

Are you training in the morning?

if not, i dont see why you need creatine or glucose then... but i may be wrong.

my understanding of Slizz's posts are, (with regards to creatine...) some pre workout, and some post workout....

And get some BCAA;s and EAAs in before and after your workout. (20 mins before and straight after)

what are your goals though? your intake needs are specific not only to your size...but what you want to do aswell (...surely?)

Im trying to cut fat at the moment, so im minimising my carbs, except for during the workout when i have a 1:1 shake... all my other shakes are just whey... and what i get out of solid foods.

[Joshua Naterman]

Slizzardman, I see you're really expert on nutrition here, could you please help me with my nutrition? Just have a quick look and say if its ok, or not. I've currently bought creatine and dextrose in addition to my whey shakes, and I'm pretty confused :? when to take them and if its enough, I'm planning to take them like this:

Morning: 25g whey + 5g creatine (what about glucose here to spike insulin?)

pre workout (30s before warmup): 15g dextrose

during workout: 15g of glucose, 15g whey, sipping between sets

post workout: 40g glucose, 5g creatine, 30g whey... 30 min after that another shake w/o creatine, 25g whey, 30g glucose.

Or should I take shake, then solid food, then shake and then again solid food?

After that 2 meals with veggies and about 25-30g of solid protein (meat or eggs), and some fruits.

Of course I'm aware that I need to drink enough water.

Overall its about 120-140g of protein daily, and 125g of glucose (not counting fructose or carbs from veggies)...

I'm about 65kg (+-145lbs)

The question is simple, is it enough for my size? Or is it too much?

Tips appriciated from ANYONE. Thank You

You probably don't need that much glucose, it's pretty much only good for intra and post workout. the 100g that you're getting from pre to post is plenty in all likelihood.

As for the creatine, pre and post workout tends to work best. 15-30 minutes pre-workout and immediately post workout. Don't go crazy worrying about carbs with the creatine, I would probably just take it with your 15g of glucose immediately before your warm up.

[Falcon]

Okay, so I'll take creatine pre and post workout.

I'll try this plan today, I think I'll be able to recover more and workout harder than before Thanks alot Slizzardman :!: :!:

[Khassera]

Something interesting along the same lines as in this thread was written by Tim Ferriss (yes, some of you probably [most likely] curse the name, bear with me though) who during his Glucose Switch -experiment came up with some results on the speed of digestibility, and the time it takes to actually reach the cells.

Here's what he wrote:

"It's not when you put it in your mouth that counts, it's when it gets to the cells:

"It turned out that food and liquids took much, much longer to get to my bloodstream than one would expect. In most cases, I peaked one and a half to two and a half hours after food consumption, even with yoghurt. Orange juice peaked 40 minutes after drinking... Think you'll have a quick bite for energy 20 minutes before going to the gym? It might not be available to your muscles until an hour after the gym. The solution: Eat it an hour earlier."

"Think that protein shake is getting to your muscles in the valuable 30-minute post-workout window? In my case, if I drank the "post-workout" shake post-workout, it didn't. I needed to have it before my workout and then sit down to a large meal almost immediately after the workout."

This is something that's already been covered, I understand, but I'm interested in the speed of pure glucose and whey: is the preworkout 10g glucose + 10g whey + BCAA that's taken 20 - 0mins before workout taken too late? Shouldn't it be taken about 30mins before to get the optimal results? Then the minute you start you first set you take a sip of the sippie drink you make?

This is just a minor detail I was thinking over: I've been training "fasted," meaning I only take BCAA + 10g whey/dextro before workouts, and this pretty much, with the logic above, is training fasted since it'll reach my muscles about halfway through the workout.

What this WOULD affect (in my own workouts and nutrition) is my post-workout shake/meal. It wouldn't make sense to have "fast" carbs in my postworkout shake because they would reach my muscles after about 30-40mins. What would make sense is eating a solid carb meal with liquid protein, but I recall that's exactly what Slizz said in one of his posts. I may recall wrong.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's a good point, thank you!

I do not believe that to be the true time, as I feel the energy starting to trickle within minutes for the glucose and probably 15-20 minutes at the most with pure whey. If you don't have a straight whey powder it may take longer, and maybe I am digesting food faster than some (or many) people do.

By the way, for the record I am a huge fan of the way Tim Ferriss has put his experiences out there, and there really isn't anything he's said that is a pile of crap. It is sad (to me) but true that we constantly need new people telling us the same thing so that we don't forget what works as the years pass, and he has done a wonderful, wonderful job of propagating a lot of true information as well as making more people aware of simple and effective treatment and exercise options as well as the dangers of trying a bunch of crazy off-the-wall stuff. I tip my hat to him.

Having said that, there is just way too much out there for any one person, myself included, to be able to know and push awareness of it all.

Anyways, the most important thing is that this is a very, very good point. Almost all solid food takes a long time to get in your system. I like food in my stomach when I work out, but as you have pointed out it is not helping me during the workout. The food is just there for when I NEED it afterwards! That's part of why I like mostly liquid before and during, so that there is nothing in my stomach slowing down digestion.

There have been numerous studies done on meal frequency and as Alan Aragon has pointed out in a superb and impressively long critical essay the only people who benefit from higher frequency are people who are athletes. That's pretty much everyone on this forum. So, having the meals as I suggest in this thread really helps a LOT in that post exercise window.

As you have said, and I hope everyone remembers, there is a very good reason why I recommend that you have the protein before and during the workout as well as afterwards, and also why I suggest that your first few meals be liquid. Remember, the post exercise window is for REPAIR, not growth so much. Growth happens in the days and often weeks after the workout.

Your primary job after each workout is to make sure that you are not letting your body destroy CURRENT muscle mass for repairs. As long as you prevent protein breakdown (proteolysis) you will have vastly superior training results. That's what this thread is all about.

DO NOT FORGET WHAT KHASSERA POSTED!!!!! HAVE YOUR PRE-WORKOUT DRINK AT LEAST 20 MINUTES BEFORE THE WORKOUT. DO NOT NEGLECT HAVING SOME PROTEIN TO SIP DURING THE WORKOUT AS WELL!!!

It doesn't have to be a ton, but the more damage you intend on doing the more you should have. Even so, 25g before and 25 more during is all anyone should need. You'll be getting 50-100g of protein afterwards in your first few meals as well, so you're talking about 100-150g of protein. That's a LOT. Probably more than enough. I have not had nearly that much recently (probably like 75-80g, as I have 30g of protein that I sip from 20 minutes pre-workout all the way through the workout since I drop it in 1/5-2 quarts/liters of water, followed by 45-50g in 2 quarts of water PWO, which I sip for an hour or two as I eat rice) and I am growing fast when I want to. That is the majority of the protein I'm having in the day, almost everything else is rice, veggies and greens, and fruit.

[Rafael David]

That is the majority of the protein I'm having in the day, almost everything else is rice, veggies and greens, and fruit.

No meat?

[Joshua Naterman]

Fairly little at the moment. Money is tight.

[nikosg]

Hey slizz,

are frozen berries from the local supermarket ok for pre-post workout?

Fresh are too expensive for this broke ass student!

[Josh Schmitter]

You're welcome!

Tablets just don't release fast enough. I have left them in water for over 2 hours with minimal degradation, which is 100% unacceptable. if you put a pill that is designed for stomach absorption in water for 15-20 minutes and it doesn't completely dissolve its worthless because it won't dissolve before it leaves the stomach. There are USP standards for this stuff, and the maximum allowable time is 30 minutes. The capsules pretty much all dissolve in minutes, which is what you need for this stuff.

Just curious about this...does stomach acid not come into play until after the tablet leaves the area where absorption occurs? I guess what I'm asking: Is the place where the tablet is absorbed just water and no stomach acid? Ha..clear as a wall made of lead.

[Falcon]

Slizzardman, how is it with bread? I've been eating bread for my whole life, and recently (like 3-4 months) I've been not eating it, I don't really feel the difference, but I've noticed it has slightly lowered my body fat. So, is bread really that bad?

[Joshua Naterman]

A lot of people notice similar effects. There are three reasonable possibilities that I can think of:

1) You are sensitive to the grains used in the bread.

2) The added sugar in the bread was contributing to your bodyfat levels

3) Both 1 and 2.

I don't have any grains but rice in my diet on a regular basis and I have noticed that I too am getting leaner.

Rice does not have gluten and is not estrogenic by nature (Corn doesn't have gluten, but I remember reading something about how corn is mildly estrogenic in the past, and either way it's expensive compared to rice!) so pretty much no one has rice intolerances.

[Blairbob]

one thing, I used to swear on sipping protein (whey) during the workout. However, I stopped doing this once I switched up to some CF workouts for awhile due to the fact I had to fight to keep it down. Not a great combination and I think possibly some caffeine might have been a culprit in it (when it comes to metcon stuff I think it allows you to push harder). It works very well for pure strength training but I'm not so sure I would do it now if I was doing event work. Still, I loved it when I was only in the gym hitting the iron and BW.

[Joshua Naterman]

You'd want a pretty diluted solution for crossfit-style WODs, like 20g per quart of water with 30-40g of glucose and 1/4 tsp of sea salt. It's essentially healthier homemade gatorade with protein and no citric acid.

Thicker drinks would be harder to keep down in an extremely high-paced workout for sure!

And yes, caffeine basically makes the calcium pump more efficient which allows you to go longer before failure.

[Warrior'sSuite]

Interesting thread...my head was spinning...

So what about the old working out as soon as you wake up, or on an empty stomach (well maybe just water) which is pretty much 10-20 min after waking up? Is this to be scratched?

[Larry Roseman]

Interesting thread...my head was spinning...

So what about the old working out as soon as you wake up, or on an empty stomach (well maybe just water) which is pretty much 10-20 min after waking up? Is this to be scratched?

10g BCAA prior is the current recommendation I believe.

For most purposes if you don't have BCAA, regular whey works, which has a high % of BCAA.

It's less of a fasted state following, and I'm not sure of the impact on this particular workout.

So if it means you're not fasting, I'd just stay in bed

[Joshua Naterman]

You guys are getting off track.

The whole purpose of fasted training is toour bod force the body to use bodyfat for energy. If your fast has been less than 48 hours will not be mindlessly cannibalizing its own tissue.

At the same time, if you're going to be doing a resistance workout you will probably not perform well fasted. Fasted workouts are best used with moderate intensity cardio-type activities.

Remember, fasted workouts are specifically for losing bodyfat, NOT for building strength. They are not necessary but can absolutely give you something of an edge.

BCAA recommendations vary with bodyweight, and you can use 5g per 50 lbs of bodyweight as a guideline. That's before AND after. As Future mentioned, whey is an excellent substitute. You'll have to take it more like 20 minutes pre-workout whereas BCAAs can be taken more like 5-10 minutes pre-workout. Not a big difference, and whey tastes much better in my opinion. It's also cheaper.

If you're worried about breaking your fast, remember that you are getting like 96 calories (assuming a 24g scoop of protein) and those calories are protein. It takes a lot of energy to convert protein into carbohydrates to be used for energy and 96 calories is NOT going to magically destroy your attempt to burn fat. Just stay away from pre-workout carbs if your goal is to burn fat.

None of this is in any way ideal or necessary, as I am discovering. I am dropping bodyfat fairly rapidly with no real effort just by following the basic guidelines in this thread and using basic good nutrition. Lots of veggies, lots of greens, meat when I feel like it, rice when I feel like it. No added sugar PERIOD. I am also following a feast/famine protocol(one day full calories and the next day 30-40% of BMR) on an intermittent schedule (eating 8-10 hours out of the day). It's effortless and I feel better than I have ever felt. I am also gaining muscle despite a net 20%+ calorie deficit while losing the fat, and my strength is soaring. Do not believe everything you have read, this is not only possible but I am starting to believe that this is what our bodies WANT us to do. Mine certainly loves it.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Great work, Slizz! You're making great discoveries!

I wake up every morning at 5 am to train until 6 or 6:30 am, but I don't really have time to have a 20 minute pre-workout meal, do you think that it would REALLY be worth it to wake up EARLIER (groan! lol!) to eat before I train or will I still be getting good results from the way things are. As it is, I am indeed trying to increase strength but I am also focusing fairly a little on cutting any unnecessary weight that I have.

Also, considering when the actual strength work is being done, if I take 24g of whey protein 10 minutes before my workout, that would mean that it would be about a total of 20 minutes by the time I was done with my warm up. As far as I can see, that would take care of the time issue primarily, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks!

[Warrior'sSuite]

I think i saw something like this on an X-men Origins interview on the e channel: Hugh Jackman was talking about his workout for the movie and said something like he woke up everyday at 4am just to have a protein shake and then he woke up at 6am to workout, something like that. I tried to find the video on youtube but couldn't find it.

[Joshua Naterman]

When you are ultra super serious that's the kind of thing you do. Hugh became huge, no doubt about it.

[Mats Trane]

When you are ultra super serious that's the kind of thing you do. Hugh became huge, no doubt about it.

I love it!

[Mats Trane]

Your primary job after each workout is to make sure that you are not letting your body destroy CURRENT muscle mass for repairs. As long as you prevent protein breakdown (proteolysis) you will have vastly superior training results. That's what this thread is all about.

So True! Thanks for reminding me Slizz!