Crossfit misusing gymnastics training. Like usual.

[Nicholas Sortino]

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/007234.html

Monday 101101

Five rounds for time of:

3 Muscle-up Handstand push-ups

10 Burpee pull-ups

Ideally, the pull-up bar is one foot above your reach. If you cannot do the muscle-up handstand push-ups, do 7 muscle-ups and 12 handstand push-ups each round.

Essentially you do a muscle-up, forward roll to shoulder stand, pushup in to handstand, back down to shoulder stand and either forward roll to hang, or roll back to support and negative down. This is probably the hardest exercise I've ever seen CF post.

[gymgreg]

The Problem: Doing the gymnastics movements for time and not for form.

I mean just look at the demo videos they provided.

Sure this makes a nice little metcon but it will not advance your gymnastic skills.

Not using muscle, but momentum, negates the whole point of the movement.

It is called MUSCLE Up for a reason.

Same goes for using the legs to "walk" up on the straps.

[Neal Winkler]

The Problem: Doing the gymnastics movements for time and not for form.

Not using muscle but momentum negates the whole point of the movement.

It is called MU for a reason.

Not that I am a defender of Crossfit or anything, but you can do anything for any reason you want. The only point is in the intention of the performer.

I also don't understand your point about how an exercise should be limited in application because of its common name. There is no magic in the name.

Next time you are being chased by a tiger and can do a muscle up to escape, will you use momentum?

[Coach Sommer]

... Not that I am a defender of Crossfit or anything, but you can do anything for any reason you want. The only point is in the intention of the performer ...

This is incorrect.

The purpose of these movements is to get stronger. Performing them incorrectly will greatly reduce, if not completely negate that effect. This is the primary reason that despite gymnastics rings having been popular in the mainstream for years now, most fitness enthusiasts have still not progessed past the most basic strength elements.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Nicholas Sortino]

I didn't mean to sound as if I approve bad form for the sake of time, which is one of my main issues with CF. I was just really surprised that they would put a rather difficult gymnastics move like that in their mainsite programming. I hope it may be a wake up call to a few that they do need to be stronger and CF doesn't do it very quickly or efficiently.

Still, I could not do this WOD without some serious scaling.

[Joshua Naterman]

HAHAHA!!! Look, they've got the right idea in the sense that they should be doing more gymnastic work to balance their upper body training, but that's seriously a pretty advanced move. I don't think that 5% of this forum could do that without assistance, and doing what is obviously strength work "for time" is f-ing backwards. I hope they get sued over that workout. I know, that's pretty mean. Look, they are A) guaranteeing that their members can make just about ZERO progress on their rings with this workout and B) They're asking people who've never even been upside down above rings before to do HSPU!!! Are you SERIOUS?! Screw that.

Crossfit likes to claim that anyone who does some gymnastic work, kettle bell work, and olympic lifting is a crossfitter, but workouts like these show that they do not understand how to bring people up progressively in gymnastics, at the very least (though I am not super impressed with the way they scale most other things), and that they do not understand the importance of finding a gymnastics professional to formulate a progressive plan. They claim professional athletes do crossfit, as if it is the heart and soul of their training and that they would not be anything without it, when they clearly do not live and breathe by "mainsite's" workouts. I'm not saying that focusing far more intensely on anaerobic 2 work than anything else is a bad thing in and of itself for a while, because many team sports and many individual sports NEED that work, but there's an awful lot more that goes into an elite athlete's training, and it is insane to me to claim that someone is a crossfitter because they use the same tools that crossfit employs. That's completely irresponsible on both counts, in my opinion.

Crossfit's got the idea that you need more than one tool to make a perfect athlete for a particular sport down pat, or even just a healthy person with a wide range of abilities, but they have yet to implement and advocate proper scaling from what I have seen. It's always PUSH PUSH PUSH! Of course soon after comes Ouch Ouch Ouch! You can push for a little while, but then you have to back off. I do not see Crossfit advocating this.

[Neal Winkler]

... Not that I am a defender of Crossfit or anything, but you can do anything for any reason you want. The only point is in the intention of the performer ...

This is incorrect.

The purpose of these movements is to get stronger. Performing them incorrectly will greatly reduce, if not completely negate that effect. This is the primary reason that despite gymnastics rings having been popular in the mainstream for years now, most fitness enthusiasts have still not progessed past the most basic strength elements.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I can't agree, Coach. That is your purpose, along with mine, but not theirs. Their purpose is to use the movement for improving endurance. Given their goals, why is it improper to use it for that?

They really don't care about getting past basic ring elements as it would take time away from other qualities they want more.

[Nicholas Sortino]

HAHAHA!!! Look, they've got the right idea in the sense that they should be doing more gymnastic work to balance their upper body training, but that's seriously a pretty advanced move. I don't think that 5% of this forum could do that without assistance, and doing what is obviously strength work "for time" is f-ing backwards. I hope they get sued over that workout. I know, that's pretty mean. Look, they are A) guaranteeing that their members can make just about ZERO progress on their rings with this workout and B) They're asking people who've never even been upside down above rings before to do HSPU!!! Are you SERIOUS?! Screw that.

Crossfit likes to claim that anyone who does some gymnastic work, kettle bell work, and olympic lifting is a crossfitter, but workouts like these show that they do not understand how to bring people up progressively in gymnastics, at the very least (though I am not super impressed with the way they scale most other things), and that they do not understand the importance of finding a gymnastics professional to formulate a progressive plan. They claim professional athletes do crossfit, as if it is the heart and soul of their training and that they would not be anything without it, when they clearly do not live and breathe by "mainsite's" workouts. I'm not saying that focusing far more intensely on anaerobic 2 work than anything else is a bad thing in and of itself for a while, because many team sports and many individual sports NEED that work, but there's an awful lot more that goes into an elite athlete's training, and it is insane to me to claim that someone is a crossfitter because they use the same tools that crossfit employs. That's completely irresponsible on both counts, in my opinion.

Crossfit's got the idea that you need more than one tool to make a perfect athlete for a particular sport down pat, or even just a healthy person with a wide range of abilities, but they have yet to implement and advocate proper scaling from what I have seen. It's always PUSH PUSH PUSH! Of course soon after comes Ouch Ouch Ouch! You can push for a little while, but then you have to back off. I do not see Crossfit advocating this.

I sometime's say I do crossfit because I do a mix of powerlifting, olympic lifting, gymnastics, KB work, rowing and running, which are what CF is all about. I just like to think I generally do it in a more intelligent progressive manner. CF mainsite annoys me a lot, although there are some affiliates who really do get it and run things well.

[Coach Sommer]

... I can't agree, Coach. That is your purpose, along with mine, but not theirs. Their purpose is to use the movement for improving endurance. Given their goals, why is it improper to use it for that?

They really don't care about getting past basic ring elements as it would take time away from other qualities they want more.

Forgive me for being direct, however your thinking is still flawed on several counts.

1) Whether or not you agree does not change the simple fact that the workout listed above is an example of incorrect programming. Plain and simple. There is a reason that despite years of exposure to ring strength training, most fitness enthusiasts still possess the ring strength ability of a seven year old gymnast.

As I have said many times in the past, Gymnastic Strength Training™ is not a buffet where you simply get to choose the items which look most inviting at that particular moment. You MUST follow clear, concise progressions in your programming or you are merely spinning your wheels. At best you will make little to no progress; regardless of how hard you work. At worst you are courting nearly certain injury.

2) Endurance is increased by performing with submaximal loads; not maximal. Attempting to build endurance by simultaneously increasing volume, intensity and load is a guaranteed path to injury. There is no distinction achieved in developing the ability to blow yourself up.

If someone would like to develop superior strength endurance, they must first develop superior strength. Strength always comes first. For an example of how correct programming in your Gymnastic Strength Training™ will also increase strength endurance, please review Appendix C on page 187 in BtGB; "120 Muscle-ups in 15 Minutes". You may find it especially instructive to note that prior to that workout, my athletes focused solely on increasing their maximal strength (reps of 3-5) and yet completely crushed that particular assignment.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Ryan Libke]

I think the goal of using gymnastic movements for the purposes of conditioning is not necessarily the problem. I don't think anyone faults Crossfit for having general fitness as the main goal, or necessarily criticizes them because they choose not to develop strength for a specific purpose. However, this workout seems to illustrate the problem that specialized strength training is eventually necessary to do certain movements. In order to do handstand push-ups on rings, there needs to be specialized training. So why put it the workout? As Slizzardman stated, very people could do this with good form. The idea of going from a low hanging position to a high position is a good one, but it is too difficult to execute. The cheating on the HSPU was pretty far out.

I don't do Crossfit, but a lot of people like it; it works for them. As someone who likes gymnastics, I like that gymnastics is a key approach in their goal to general fitness. This may not have been a great exercise selection for a general population of fitness enthusiasts, and I can certainly understand why it is irksome to person who strive for good form in exersise. It is almost as if the authors of that WOD wanted to exagerate their abilities. I don't think this tendancy can be ascribed to the entire lot, though.

PS I wrote this before Coach posted his message, which seems to articulate the problem much better.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nick: I agree, and those affiliates should be able to dissociate themselves from the noxious spew of the main site. It's almost a shame that one kind of needs the brand recognition of crossfit...

As for Coach's comment, which just got posted... yup. That's been my experience as well. I have personally crushed many endurance challenges despite never really training for them. I can cite 90something dips in a row, all to AT LEAST parallel, as one example. I never trained more than 10 reps, weighted or unweighted, and my sets always took around 20s at the most. 1s down, 1s up. The 97 dips in a row was quite fast, the first 70 were in around 70s and I didn't even take a rest in the straight arm support until around 80 if I remember correctly. You know how that one happened? Someone said "hey Naterman, how many dips can you do" while I was doing weighted dips. So I said "you know... I have no idea. Let's find out." And I did, and it was pretty awesome. Endurance can be built in a matter of months, but even with drugs a high level of strength takes years to develop, and strength absolutely influences endurance directly, while endurance does not directly influence strength. I am sure there will be a question about that statement and I will answer it if it comes.

Wolf: I think that using gymnastic work for anaerobic 2 conditioning is quite brilliant, but let's be real... 3 reps is NOT endurance work, especially with these exercises. This is beyond most peoples' ability to even cheat through. A prime example of complete lack of integrity, responsibility, and due diligence on the part of whoever came up with that one. And 10 burpees? Why not just take a nap? It might be harder. But wait... we should really try to wear ourselves out before we go upside down over that nice comfortable concrete slab covered with .75" of delicious, soft shock absorbing rubber!!! I mean what's next, put back flips into the WOD? Iron cross? Kettlebell juggling? Maybe we should just eat glass, that'll make us tough! YEA! "CROSSFIT AND DIE RAAWWWWRGH 4EVA!" :roll:

[Erik Sjolin]

There is a reason that despite years of exposure to ring strength training, most fitness enthusiasts still possess the ring strength ability of a seven year old gymnast.

I'm a little curious regarding ring strength. Since joining the forum and program about 15 months ago, I've heard of this distinction between beginner and advanced ring strength.

I assume beginner is things like dips, pull ups, muscle ups, etc, but what exactly constitutes as advanced? Or is that sort of knowledge just inviting injury by people not ready for it (like me)?

[Joshua Naterman]

Don't worry Eric, I'm in that "not ready for this info" group too!

I think that advanced ring strength is PL, Maltese, IC, inverted cross, victorian, butterflies, azarians, nakayama, etc.

The beginner stuff would be wide, slow MU; XR L-sit, bulgarian dips, inverted pull ups/curls, etc. I don't know if FL and BL are considered beginner or not, but they are A ranked skills I believe even in international competition so I would think they are more intermediate.

What's really funny and sad is that most cross fitters don't even train a straight arm ring support because they don't know that you need it! They can't even do a proper RTO XR L sit despite years of training, much less a static XR handstand using the straps (which is incredibly hard for me, as strong as I am). Even most of our members here have a tough time with that stuff, and nearly all of US can't do bulgarian dips with perfect form. They are hard when your elbows are on the same plane as your shoulders.

[Ryan Libke]

I agree with your post above Slizzardman about the MU to HSPU. This certainly cannot be considered an endurance activity for the prescribed reps and difficulty. It must be a strength move. If the purpose of the exercise is to develop strength, it follows that it should be done with proper form, and scaled appropriately.

For the truly developed athlete/jedi, perhaps the WOD should be:

-stand facing West;

-levitate two feet off of floor;

-bring hands to shoulders, as if about to push something heavy (like your thoughts), for visual effect;

-invert body using mind forces;

-push hands towards floor and explode through roof into orbit.

Do this x3 for time.

I am just saying, if you are going to pretend to have more ability than you have, might as well really use your imagination.

[Razz]

What I love is when my friends lay down to do a 5 minute series of abs/v-ups/hollow holds - you get the deal, and I go to the stall bars and perform some HLL, some body levers and some l-sits. I still beat them on the 5 minute ab bullshit

[Michael Traynor]

Holy unecessarily-difficult-exercises-used-in-completely-the-wrong-way Batman!

A prime example of complete lack of integrity, responsibility, and due diligence on the part of whoever came up with that one. And 10 burpees? Why not just take a nap? It might be harder. But wait... we should really try to wear ourselves out before we go upside down over that nice comfortable concrete slab covered with .75" of delicious, soft shock absorbing rubber!!! I mean what's next, put back flips into the WOD? Iron cross? Kettlebell juggling? Maybe we should just eat glass, that'll make us tough! YEA! "CROSSFIT AND DIE RAAWWWWRGH 4EVA!" :roll:

+1

This is one of the reasons Crossfit frustrates me so much, I love the idea of the community side of crossfit and the way the classes operate from what i've seen, but just reading this WOD makes my elbows have sympathy pains for those Crossfitters.

p.s.

There is no distinction achieved in developing the ability to blow yourself up.

= Brilliant

[Joshua Naterman]

There is no distinction achieved in developing the ability to blow yourself up.

= Brilliant

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!!! HOW DID I MISS THAT?! That is one of my favorite quotes now!

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Sorry for this long posting. Reading it again, I do get the distinct impression that some aspects and claims of CF as a training method has really irritated me.

I did use to follow the CF main site for quite some time, because I liked the energy of the community, and, at first, I found that the training method was similar to what we did in he sixties, when we were training in college for race rowing. At that time, we called it circuit training, and acknowledged that the particular training method came from East Germany. In fact, when, later in my forties, I got the training bug for rowing again, that was what I started doing again (besides rowing), with very good results. Needless to say that at that time (25 years ago) CF was not around yet to claim this as their “all-new revolutionary training method to become an elite athlete, blah, blah, blahâ€. Basically, it was high reps O-lifting with lighter weights plus pull-ups, dips etc. Fortunately for me, I have a healthy suspicion of the ra-ra “we train the fittest athletes in the world†message that gradually has become CF main site’s theme song. Neither did I believe in CF’s mono-and-manic pre-occupation with “for timeâ€, to the detriment of necessary focus on elements like technique, balance, coordination, and flexibility, not to mention preparation and progression. The notion of becoming an “elite athleteâ€, that is dangled as the the proverbial carrot in front of the innocent mainstream CF-practitioner’s nose, in the end really turned me off. There is quite a bit of talk in the CF forums about having top athletes (e.g. decathletes, rowers, gymnasts) come and compete with the CF best, fully expecting that they will be thrashed (as they will). Somewhat irritated by the stupid arrogance of it all, I have played with the idea to invite the first eight finishers of the CF games to come and compete in an eight against the over-65 eight that I row with. Of course they (the CF fittest athletes) would not stand a change, because of a lack of specific technique, balance, coordination and focus. All the superior strength, power, endurance of the top CF athletes would dissolve in a lot of trashing and flailing. Rowing is specific, and so is CF, despite all its claims as an athletic cure-all that are made by its marketing boys (the term snake oil salesman keeps popping up in my mind).

About a year ago, I posted a challenge on the CF main site board. At that time, I was pretty ecstatic, because I had discovered that I could do a 10 second straddle FL hold at the age of 68. So, my challenge to the CF community was a 10 second straddle FL hold, a 10 second straddle BL hold, plus a 30 seconds free HS. The challenge generated a lot of very nice reactions (“very inspirationalâ€, etc.) but no real takers; except that one tough 62-year old, who inspired by my challenge, proceeded to muscle up the distance from Everest base camp to the top and back at a pace of 5 to 25 MU’s a day (try it; you won’t like it). Did this lack of interest in trying to master some very basic gymnastic holds prove anything? I do not know. It was a bit disappointing though. Like seeing the emperor without any clothes on. All is well that ends well, though. I am eternally grateful, because, in the twilight of my athletic “careerâ€, by way of the CF site I discovered the GB site. The emphasis here on the GB site on scaling, progressions, good preparation, and technique are already paying off. I really enjoy every second of my GB training. The fact that patience is seen as essential if you want real progress simply makes me sleep a lot better. My shoulders feel better than they have in ages; my core strength is greater than I can remember; my flexibility is slowly improving. My rowing is improving; my climbing is better. The first thing I do with a new WOD is check how, for instance, slizzardman is scaling it. I have become an addict of his instructional videos, because he sincerely tries to show the essentials instead of showing off his world class strength. Knowing that he (and a lot of other GB practitioners) is taking it one small step at a time has worked wonders for me to keep my still burning ambition in check.

[Razz]

Great post Frits!!

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Thanks Razz. It feels really good to get that out of my system.

[Joshua Naterman]

Wow. Thank you for the kind words!

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

slizzardman, you are welcome. From my heart and in appreciation for all the good advice you post here.

[Nicholas Sortino]

I am now adding a new goal to my list of things to do one day. Compete and kick ass at the CF games without being a @fitter. Just because I am really oh so tired of their claim that they are the best all around athletes in the world.

I really appreciate what @fit is doing for the fitness world, converting more and more people away from silly machines, isolation, fitness magazine routines and the likes, but the attitude i've seen recently has really started to get on my nerves. When I first started @fit most of the people seemed fairly humble, but now every time I read the comments on the mainsite, I leave in disgust.

[Joshua Naterman]

I too will be smashing crossfit games. It's going to be fun being one of the biggest guys out there and still wrecking everyone in endurance as well as strength! All while wearing a GB t-shirt.

[Nicholas Sortino]

I too will be smashing crossfit games. It's going to be fun being one of the biggest guys out there and still wrecking everyone in endurance as well as strength!

There are more than a few big guys who did quite well there. Dave Lipson (dude has a 500lbs+ front squat), Rich Froning Jr(would have come in first if he knew how to climb a rope), Jason Khalipa, Rob Orlando, Matt Chan (won the USAW/CF thing) are all probably as big as you, or close to it. Big guys aren't a complete rarity in CF.

Edit: Checked up on it, and some of those guys aren't quite as big as you, but I think that is a height thing... They are still pretty big for their size.