The protein myth!

[Razz]

So here is the guy who has the truth guys! We don't need proteins, we need enzymes!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Felipe]

There isn't 1 vegan who doesnt have malnutrition problem.

But every person who tried Paleo was feeling better and younger than ever.

That's enough to prove him wrong without knowing anything of biochemistry.

[Josh Schmitter]

After some extensive research I, a former vegan, have determined that even if this guy was overflowing with the ultimate truth of athletic knowledge, I would rather be eating some chicken while working on FL progressions than spending time with him. Science man. Science.

[Fryk]

I see, enzymes! Oh well, maybe I should give up eating meat all together, instead I will start to ingest large amounts of washing powder. It has enzymes too, or so I have been told.

[Razz]

The funny thing is when he's like "we don't need proteins, we need amino acids" ok that's fair enough but when he then says "enzymes are strings of amino acids" hmmmmm okaaaaaayy that would make enzymes=proteins=strings of amino acids, so why is it we don't need proteins but enzymes?!?

[VeganMartin]

I think he was trying to say that we don't need protein supplements and/or that we don't need to worry about protein, and that protein is found in most food. What he said about enzymes and protein was a bit confusing.

As far as I know (which isn't much), enzymes are a different type of protein to the type that is usually thought of as protein. That other protein is fibrous protein and forms muscles and bones. Many things are proteins, including hormones and antibodies.

Enzymes take part in many functions including muscle contraction. They are made of amino acids and have a role in the catalysis of other amino acids - the ones usually thought of as the building blocks of the fibrous proteins.

So, enzymes are found in food and have a role in muscle-building proteins. I think that's what he said but he didn't differentiate between the structure and function of enzymes.

Actually, we don't need meat to be healthy. I've been a vegan for 30 years and I am strong and healthy. I'm not a raw vegan, though. Quite a few top sports people in strength and endurance sports are vegans. Generally, as long as we get enough calories from a well balanced diet we will get enough protein. Some bodybuilders and strength athletes probably need protein supplements, though. Even the meat eating ones. And some seem to need drugs.

Most of my protein will come from bread, tahini and soya milk. I know many vegans, some are life-long vegans, and most are healthy. I also know of meat eaters who have malnutrition problems.

[Fryk]

This is a dangerous path. The clash of meat-eaters and the non meat-eaters, epic battles have been fought on this subject. And possibly something we should try to abstain from. I would however say that I think that for optimum health, meat needs to be in the diet. Is it probably possible to live a healthy life with out meat, possibly, but then again it is also to live a healthy life with out vegetable products.

On the topic. Razz, you are absolutely right, he is very much self-contradictory and for any one with a tiny bit of education in nutrition it should be fairly obvious.

As a side note to this whole enzymes aren't protein topic: In any textbook on nutrition and metabolism, at least the ones I have read, it is stated that proteins are digested by enzymes primarily in the ventricle and the small intestine. Only after cleavage of the larger proteins to di, tri and oligo-peptides (two, three and "few" aminoacids in chains), will the brush border epithelium in the small intestine cleave them further and transport the amino acids into their lumen, from where they enter circulation.

We are not to any large degree able to absorb whole proteins, and that would include enzymes. Therefore "enzymes" cannot in this respect contribute in any other way than "protein". It all has to come through the small intestine the same way.

[Razz]

Martin I don't know about you specifically, but most vegans with or without knowing it are malnutritioned. Most probably won't realize until switching to a higher protein diet with meat. There are also several ex-vegans/vegetarians on this forum who has found after 15+ years that it wasn't worth it. Anyways this wasn't meant to be a battle of vegans and carnivores, rather it was supposed to be a fun little video with the whole enzymessssss thing. Also notice his eyes, wondering if it's some kind of vitamin/mineral deficiency?

[VeganMartin]

Yes, I know the post wasn't a dig at veganism. And the video is rather confusing. I've been involved in quite a few epic meat-versus-plant-foods battles over the years so I don't want this to degenerate into one of those, either. :shock:

I've heard about ex-vegans and ex-vegetarians who say they feel better after going back to meat. I would say they must have been doing something wrong. Some of them might be gluten intolerant or allergic to soya but relied heavily on them for food. And there are many vegans who have rubbishy or inadequate diets. A well balanced, wholefood, vegan diet is healthy and gives everything we need. The only necessary nutrient suitable for vegans that doesn't come from the natural world (at least the modern natural world and the modern human living conditions) is B12. But that is found in many foods suitable for vegans.

I know of very many, and know personally quite a few, people who say they feel much healthier after they stop eating meat. Meat eaters might argue those people were doing something wrong in their diets or lifestyles.

I am not lacking anything. I have taken part in studies into vegan health and had my blood examined for all sorts of things. I always pass muster. My levels of fitness - when I'm not nursing injuries - would leave most people half my age gasping on the floor. I don't necessarily think that is entirely due to my diet. My training probably has a bit to do with it, too.

[Fryk]

Training is a variable to consider, however genetics will possibly play a bigger role. Enzymes-guy say he's 15lbs "over-weight" in muscle compared to other runners. He attributes this to his healthy diet, which spawned this thread. Some people will be muscular even if they are fed and watered poorly and do little in terms of exercise, just because of their genetic makeup, where as others struggle to put on muscle even though they eat like pigs. This is why in general n=1 is somewhat dodgy.

[Svend]

Enzymes are per definition usually one or more proteins which catalyze a chemical reaction. I guess his statement is that raw food contains more protein than cooked food but it sounds like he's not too versed in the science. :?

[Fryk]

Since he is a raw foodie, he might be thinking about denaturation (change of structure) of the proteins, which occurs with heating. Which still does not make any difference. He is funny, although involuntarily so.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I have three words to say:

The China Study.

And two more:

Mac Danzig.

[Cole Dano]

The thing is guys like Mac are really the exception rather than the rule in the vegan world, Mahler being another example.

Being one of the ex vegetarians Razz referred to i can say for 10 years i was very happy with it. Then slowly i started having problems, bad digestion, inability to gain mass though i was working hard every day, it finally degenerated to Asthma, which totally derailed me. The syndrome is often called Failure to Thrive.

Adding meat back into the diet made an immediate and clear difference. The asthma and allergy problems have diminished to the point i hardly notice them. Now at my peak, i had ridiculous stamina, so it was quite a shock to see it disappear and not be able to do anything about it.

In this case going back to meat made all the difference.

I have no issues with vegan etc, just relaying my experience.

[VeganMartin]

I'm not saying this is true in your case, Mr Brady, but some people can develop intolerences after years of eating certain foods. In which case, they will not thrive. There are also constant cultural pressures to conform to the 'normal' diet and subconscious factors that can make people unsatisfied - both physically and emotionally - with a meatless diet. I believe these factors could lead to a lack of energy or health even if people are getting every nutrient they need from their diet. Emotions can interfere with digestion. Even unconscious emotions or beliefs could do so. Nagging doubts about the suitability of your diet could actually make it unsuitable.

Mac Danzig might be the exception but so is Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali. There are fewer top vegan athletes because there are fewer vegans. There are just over seven million Swiss - about one in a thousand of all the people in the world. But I don't think there are many world beating athletes amongst them. I think about one person in a thousand is vegan (certainly amongst those who have been vegan for a long time) and quite a few are world beaters.

[Razz]

Patrick I hope you know how flawed the china study is.. if not do your research on it. All I have to say is don't do vegan if you think it's gonna help your health, the environments health or your performance. It will do neither of all these 3.

[sean.albo]

As someone who consumes a vegan diet, I agree with Razz's comment. I can't identify as a vegan, and would never advocate for veganism for reasons of health, the environment, or performance. I am absolutely convinced I would have a higher level of performance if I consumed meat, and the impact on the environment is such a complex sociopolitical issue that it's near impossible to evaluate any impact. I adhere only because of my intense discomfort with the thought of killing an animal (eggs I would eat, were it not for how egg-laying hens are treated in America. Cage-free is a joke). I do believe, though, that with meat, fish, and eggs, I would have access to more nutritionally-dense sources of protein.

I have to disagree with the claim that a vegan diet is inherently flawed. It may not provide an optimal diet, but perhaps it is foolish to think of diets in terms of optimal diet. There is not ideal diet, no combination of foods that will give us some golden ratio of nutrients. Maybe somebody makes more money than another, but it doesn't imply a superiority of job, it merely identifies a quantitative difference along a single dimension, to be placed in the context of many other such dimensions?

Anyways, I think it is possible to be an amazing athlete consuming a vegan diet, and to claim that healthy vegans are anomalies seems vastly biased and close-minded. Anomalies are not exceptions to a rule; they identify flaws in the axioms we use to construct theories.

.sean

[AlexX]

While I am not into vegetarianism or veganism myslelf, guys like Mahler are NOT the exception. There have been countless successful bodybuilders who were vegetarians or vegans. The thing is if you wish to be a vegetarian or vegan then like the rest of us (even more so) you need a proper nutrition plan to get all your macronutrients in. All the bodybuilders that were vegetarians had one thing in common - they worried about protein intake and made sure to adjust their plans accordingly because they were vegetarians.

Being a vegetarian is nothing special you exclude a protein source (for whatever reason ethical or others), most people who are vegetarians are just as misguided as the none-vegetarian crowd and have a crappy eating plan and a poor understanding of how nutrients work. Adjust accordingly and there will be no difference in a vegetarian training vs regular diet training.

There isn't 1 vegan who doesnt have malnutrition problem.

But every person who tried Paleo was feeling better and younger than ever.

That's enough to prove him wrong without knowing anything of biochemistry.

There are a ton of vegan athletes that don't have malnutrition problems especially in the bodybuilding world, and not everyone who tries paleo feels better and younger than ever. I for example saw no change in either body composition or any feeling when I tried paleo for 3 months BUT I was eating a very clean diet to begin with.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Patrick I hope you know how flawed the china study is.. if not do your research on it. All I have to say is don't do vegan if you think it's gonna help your health, the environments health or your performance. It will do neither of all these 3.

Sorry, Razz. I wasn't ignoring you, just didn't see this at all.

After doing a lot of reading about the China Study I did come to understand how flawed it is. It was an interesting concept, but fortunately for us, paleo remains the tastiest, easiest, and (as far as I've seen) most effective diet. 8)

[Razz]

Patrick I hope you know how flawed the china study is.. if not do your research on it. All I have to say is don't do vegan if you think it's gonna help your health, the environments health or your performance. It will do neither of all these 3.

Sorry, Razz. I wasn't ignoring you, just didn't see this at all.

After doing a lot of reading about the China Study I did come to understand how flawed it is. It was an interesting concept, but fortunately for us, paleo remains the tastiest, easiest, and (as far as I've seen) most effective diet. 8)

No problem, good you know that it's flawed So far, there is nothing that can argue with a paleo diet. No counter evidence whatsoever. Yes some people may be tolerant to grains but that's about it. Still releases a buttload of insulin..

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Patrick I hope you know how flawed the china study is.. if not do your research on it. All I have to say is don't do vegan if you think it's gonna help your health, the environments health or your performance. It will do neither of all these 3.

Sorry, Razz. I wasn't ignoring you, just didn't see this at all.

After doing a lot of reading about the China Study I did come to understand how flawed it is. It was an interesting concept, but fortunately for us, paleo remains the tastiest, easiest, and (as far as I've seen) most effective diet. 8)

No problem, good you know that it's flawed So far, there is nothing that can argue with a paleo diet. No counter evidence whatsoever. Yes some people may be tolerant to grains but that's about it. Still releases a buttload of insulin..

There was someone I talked to on another forum who believed that the paleo diet was a fad as compared to the modern American diet.

On the subject of insulin, I read on Coach Poliquin's website that if you take about three grams of omega 3 fish oil right after eating something that would cause an insulin spike you can greatly reduce the negative effects. Obviously, that doesn't make it healthy to eat grains and the like, but it's a nice thing to know if you can't avoid eating some kind of treat.

[Razz]

Yeah fish oil, cinnamon, lime juice are all good tools if you're gonna do a binge meal!

[anhkun]

this guy is clearly uneducated.. i hope someone tells him that enzymes are proteins.

[EastWind]

To me, a day without a protein source would be like the sky without the sun.