Would Middle Split Holds improve Circles in Pommel Horese?

[Mats Trane]

Hi all!

I was thinking the other day while working MSH, would the MSH be a good strenght excercise (trying to push hips forward)for improving form for circles on the Pommelhorse? Anyone have experience?

[Blairbob]

Yes, you need to have the ability to lean back on the triceps for a high circle. It probably helps flair a bit as well but in general having more strength and flexibility helps pommel horse, period.

[Coach Sommer]

Semantics are very important when discussing circle technique.

A correct circle does not "lean" back, but rather presses forward. The balance of the circle does indeed require the shoulders to be behind the hands, however the key aspect here is that the hips are pressed up and away from the hands. Attempting to lean back with the hips on or near the hands is what we refer to in my gym as a "fake stretch" and is something to be avoided at all costs as it will seriously compromise any hope of developing extension, speed or balance during the circle.

While the following does not include any technical circle instruction, for general basic to lower level pommel conditioning you may enjoy the following:

http://www.british-gymnastics.org/site/ ... Itemid=419

The above link will take you directly to whatever British Gymnastics video is the latest. In the future as more videos are added, you will need to scroll down to the Paul Hall video on Pommel Horse basics.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Blairbob]

Thankyou, Coach as I did leave out that point. As well, I have heard good things of Paul Hall and it was interesting to view that video.

[braindx]

As far as the strength goes there is not much required to perform circles honestly.

So I mean general strengthening may help, but it's more learning the technique as you can find in the above.

[Coach Sommer]

As far as the strength goes there is not much required to perform circles honest

Actually, yes and no.

In terms of the type of maximal strength exerted during ring elements, no. However to perform correct circles does require a highly specialized strength and flexibility without which no amount of technical training will succeed.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[braindx]

As far as the strength goes there is not much required to perform circles honest

Actually, yes and no.

In terms of the type of maximal strength exerted during ring elements, no. However to perform correct circles does require a highly specialized strength and flexibility without which no amount of technical training will succeed.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Hmm. I might have to disagree slightly with that assertion having coached the college guys who have never done gymnastics or strength training in their life to doing circles (although obviously not as proficient as younger guys).

Most of the time they gain enough strength for circles from the technique training for circles themselves although they do perform better if they are doing basic strength training such as pullups and dips.

Extremely technically proficient circles (e.g. like the Chinese) I would definitely agree though.

[Coach Sommer]

... I might have to disagree slightly with that assertion having coached the college guys who have never done gymnastics or strength training in their life to doing circles (although obviously not as proficient as younger guys) ... Extremely technically proficient circles (e.g. like the Chinese) I would definitely agree though ...

As a long time US National Team Coach, what other kind of circles would I be discussing other than the Chinese variety?

To perform circles correctly will require extensive physical prep and substantial technical training. In my experience, it requires a minimum of 4 years to build a proficient circle. For the competitive athlete this proficiency is key, as without an excellent circle there will be no high level skills achieved on pommel horse.

Poorly performed circles of course require far less effort and, equally important, also have far less future value.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[braindx]

I do not feel it is practical for someone who is not in competitive gymnastics to spend such an amount of time to learn technically proficient circles (as much as it would be beneficial to do that).

But we don't know if OP is a competitive gymnast or someone just interested in learning circles/basic PH

[Coach Sommer]

... But we don't know if OP is a competitive gymnast or someone just interested in learning circles/basic PH ...

As cdx's son is involved with the Swedish National Team, I believe that the question answers itself.

Here on Gymnastic Bodies, one of the areas of primary focus will always be striving to perform technical elements correctly. When you have accrued more experience, you will perhaps come to have a better appreciation of why this is both productive and necessary.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[braindx]

... But we don't know if OP is a competitive gymnast or someone just interested in learning circles/basic PH ...

As cdx's son is involved with the Swedish National Team, I believe that the question answers itself.

Here on Gymnastic Bodies, one of the areas of primary focus will always be striving to perform technical elements correctly. When you have accrued more experience, you will perhaps come to have a better appreciation of why this is both productive and necessary.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Then I agree with the assessment.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying here though.

I do believe it is best to train technically to the best of your abilities all of the time both in strength moves and skill variations.

Given the limited amount of time in the gym of recreational athletes I feel that is more productive in most cases to focus technically on performing circles and let the basic strength work supplement the circles rather than devote all of a limited to technical proficiency and extensive physical preparation. Although if the physical preparation can be combined with the strength work then all the better.

[Coach Sommer]

I understand what you are implying and I still maintain that your position is incorrect. Regardless of how much emphasis is placed on establishing a basic level of FBE strength, without specialized pommel horse preparation the circles produced will always be substandard (if not down right poor); both in terms of strength gains from the workouts and the degree of technical proficiency.

It is probably best to end this discussion here. At this point, I feel that my continuing to describe to you the benefits of correct pommel horse preparation is somewhat akin to a sighted man attempting to explain sight to the sightless. You simply cannot appreciate the intricacies involved as you have not yet achieved yourself or instructed someone to a high level of proficiency on pommel horse.

This is not intended as an insult, it is simply that at your current level of development you simply lack the necessary experience by which to verify what I have shared with you.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Mats Trane]

Braindx,

Have ever considered expermenting putting 5-10 minutes per training session (or even asking your athletes to do it at home) to do "pommel strenght training" to see if your atheletes circles would improve (greatly) over time?

[braindx]

Braindx,

Have ever considered expermenting putting 5-10 minutes per training session (or even asking your athletes to do it at home) to do "pommel strenght training" to see if your atheletes circles would improve (greatly) over time?

Yes. Recreational athletes have a very high rate of non-compliance especially when they have more pressing concerns (I wanna get my flips!). The ones that do realize the importance of strict technique and physical preparation (usually 1-2 years after I tell them) improve greatly and wish they had listened when I told them the first time.

[Blairbob]

That is exactly why I don't try to spend too much of my time at the college gymnastics club workout sessions offering advice or coaching.

It doesn't make sense to taking away from my workout time when realistically they are just farting around. So if they are interested enough to ask for help, it's worthwhile. With a lot of those, they just realistically won't put the time and effort into training worthwhile. As well, they tend to do ridiculous conditioning (think I want my abs to burn) or nothing at all and then wonder why their bodies break down over years.

[Ryan Verma]

Man, I WISH I had someone who was remotely interested in giving me advice with gymnastics training in my area. Those guys at your gym just don't know what they're missing, Blairbob.

[AlexX]

Man, I WISH I had someone who was remotely interested in giving me advice with gymnastics training in my area. Those guys at your gym just don't know what they're missing, Blairbob.

Yeah but that's true in most disciplines. I've seen people completely disregard advice from an elite level powerlifter on their bench presses. Most people would jump at the chance of someone who has totaled elite to check on their form. As someone who lifted weights before (or still does) I am sure you're familiar with this.

[Blairbob]

Funny thing is during one of the first weeks I was here, one of the girl's team coaches (I coach girl's team now) mentioned her brother knew who I was. Turns out I think he is a forum lurker besides following the book. So I generally see him 2x/week. Pretty cool actually.

[phken4343]

In terms of the type of maximal strength exerted during ring elements, no. However to perform correct circles does require a highly specialized strength and flexibility without which no amount of technical training will succeed.

By flexibility, do you mean like shoulders and wrist flexibility? Or is there something more?

[Blairbob]

Basically, imo. However, active split flexibility is necessary for flairs.

[Gregor]

1. Basic splits are necessary for flairs and basicly for gymnastic. But not for circles. That doesn't mean it's not good to do them.

2. As coach said it is needed 4 years for good circles with proper devotion and knowledge. I will go even further for great circles it's necessary to trying clean them all your life and doing boomerang run with going back to basics and again to learning new things.

3.Lerning the correct circles is the hardest thing of all on pommel (never ending story), easier is to learn travels, dismounts.

4. If your circles are not great you wnat learn anything big.

I usualy don't want to explain any technical stuff on the forum simply because it's to hard to explain something through forum and knowing that pupil did understood you excatly what you meant.