Crunches: Good or bad?

[Asclepius]

So I have heard a lot recently about how doing crunches are bad, particularly for your spine. I've never really done them in a workout program before, except currently with boxing because the coach just rolls that way. I considered adding weighted decline bench crunches to a mass-building regimen I am currently on, but now I am not so sure.

Opinions?

[Aurelio Paras]

Even if they don't pose any kind of chronic damage to your spine, they are not very effective for any sport. Because the resistance is so low, they fail to build strong abs.

If mass training, you want high resistance exercises. I would consider the following:

Standing barbell twists (you may already be familiar with these)

Saxon Side Bends

V-ups

Hanging Leg Lift

Ab Wheel

Body Levers

Weight incline situps (not crunches) should work pretty well too. Just make sure to keep your back straight and not let it round.

[Samuel Carr]

Im sure they would be alright if people actually did them with decent form. It seems like most people pull on their necks a lot with their arms, have rounded spines, fast tempo and rocking/swinging, and minimized range which would make them pretty useless.

[Scott Malin]

As stated, it's a question of efficiency. Are you looking for an answer to whether crunches harm you to do, or more which ab exercises help best build a six pac?

[Asclepius]

As stated, it's a question of efficiency. Are you looking for an answer to whether crunches harm you to do, or more which ab exercises help best build a six pac?

I guess kind of both? Mean, I care much more about strength and not being hurt in the long run, so I really don't care per se if I have a six pack. Strength is more what I'm after.

The reason I am asking is because I am following Starting Strength along with the WODs, and SS calla for 3x5 weighted decline sit-ups. So are they unnecessary? I'm honestly not sure why Rippetoe put them in there.

Also, there is a difference between sit-ups and crunches? Does it have to do with lumbar flexion, in which case doesn't that also answer which one is actually safe to do (meaning that the sit up is the safe one due to a stable upper spine and flexed lumbar spine?)?

[Blairbob]

One, doing the WOD's is not ideal if you want to get the most out of SS.

I don't remember decline situps being part of SS.

Situps have more ROM than crunches. Crunches have like 40% of the effort of a situp. Maybe that's just a number.

[Asclepius]

One, doing the WOD's is not ideal if you want to get the most out of SS.

Why?

EDIT: Isn't it okay to train twice a day?

I don't remember decline situps being part of SS.

They are the optional exercises. You can do those and hyperextensions if you want at the end of each session.

[Gavin Strelitz]

My two cents worth:

I did decline situps for a long time before doing GB style training and I can say without doubt that GB training results are far better from a strength and aesthetic perspective. HLL, Circular HLL, L-sit, Front Lever and Body Levers have worked very well for me.

[Asclepius]

My two cents worth:

I did decline situps for a long time before doing GB style training and I can say without doubt that GB training results are far better from a strength and aesthetic perspective. HLL, Circular HLL, L-sit, Front Lever and Body Levers have worked very well for me.

But were they weighted decline sit-ups? Maybe Rippetoe mainly put the in for mass building, but I do recall slizzardman talking about how at one point he was doing weighted decline and weighted inverse sit-ups. If I'm not mistaken, he may have said that when he moved onto body levers, his strength increased a lot (may be wrong about that).

[Gavin Strelitz]

No, they weren't weighted.

[Scott Malin]

Blair: Rippetoe put some supplementary exercises in his 2nd edition of SS. I think he still kept the gallon of milk a day recommendation in it though (yuck). If I recall what I heard Scott Abel say once, that 40% figure is the ROM in which the rectus is a prime mover before the iliopsoas take over.

While I do think there is value to inverted weighted work for situps, my personal experience and with clients has been that strict form L-sits are a much better time investment, as are strict hanging leg lifts. They'd be easy to fit in with SS. I'd consider a stall bar necessary for good form on the leg lifts as a beginner. Even with a good partner, you underestimate how much give you have. But I think like everything, it's more about the program and how things inter-relate than a single exercise. GB does work great for this. I earned my 6pac the hard way at 11 doing insane numbers of sit ups and occasional pull ups or dead hangs. Even with a fatless frame, my results were just passable to hang with my peers (you had to have a pac to be cool with that demographic). To give you an idea, for New Year's Eve 1996-1998, I would do a sit up for every number of the New Year. It took forever and then some. And pathetic effort to results ratio. With the gymnastics work, I do no work outside the WoD and don't ever worry about a pac other than if I let my eating slip.

I also found that Stuart Mcgill's stir-the-pot exercise in a straddle makes a good progression towards the L-Sit for clients who otherwise could never do anything. Between that and a specific exercise for the rectus femoris, I could emulate the exact same workload and feel of a proper L-sit for even the most obese client.

Some more food for thought on the hormonal and nutrition side of the pac equation:

Lights Out

Why We Get Fat

Oh, and make sure you are weighting your pull up/chin up work if possible with SS. Most people assume they can't weight them for the prescribed rep count without even trying.

[Blairbob]

GOMAD is not a necessary part of SS, however it is recommended for mass gain and it can help a lot with recovery.

SS is meant to be done by the book. Not piecemealed with other stuff. If you don't follow the program exactly as it is, YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE PROGRAM!

I mean, hell it could be possibly to do both but the gains in SS come from the amount of rest. You will pretty pissed if you keep on having to reset the program or fail because you keep on trying to add this and that to SS such as CF metcons, excessive cardio, rucking, competitive soccer, etc.

I'm sure you could swap out a lot of the reccomended ab work of SS with gymnastics ab work. Sure, why not. Again, it's just assistance stuff.