Ever had an athletic epiphany, and any 5.11/5.12 climbers?

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

I started writing this under the "Amazing videos of 70 year old German gymnast" thread, but then realized that the closing question would do better as a separate topic.

Edit: And then, realizing I was missing the point I changed the question.

I had an athletic epiphany last May. I went climbing in Indian Creek (Utah), where I met Jim Donini, a legend in the climbing world (first ascents in Patagonia some time back). At 69, he still leads 5.11 (and the occasional 5.12) and spends a lot of time exploring the desert with his younger friend Jay Smith (60 and also a 5.11/5.12 climber) and some younger disciples. Until I met him, I felt pretty smug to be able to top rope up to 5.10+ (mostly thanks to my gymnasticbodies type training). To put it in gymnasticbodies terms: for a 5.10+ toproper being able to lead a 5.11/5.12 is akin to being able to do a free XR handstand press (and, on a good day, lowering into a planche) if you can do a shoulder stand with short straps and plenty of ceiling assist. So, have you ever had an athletic epiphany? Of course that can range from this indescribable feeling you had when, on the beach, you noticed your girlfriend lovingly looking at you pecs, to the sun breaking through the clouds when you finally nailed your 5 sec. extended tuck planche in your backyard. And by the way, as a matter of curiosity, how many 5.11/5.12 climbers do we have here among our esteemed forum regulars. Breaks, maybe?

[Michael Traynor]

I will have to have a wee think about my epiphanies. We use the french grading system here not the YDS but 5.10 - 5.11 ranges from 6b to 7a which I can lead climb depending on length and the crux problems, I am pretty heavy and don't have a great wingspan so I am far more suited to Gymnastics than climbing, climbing is a hobby, Gymnastics is my passion

EDIT: Just reread your post and they climb 5.11 - 5.12 which is 6c to 7c: It would have to be a very good day for me to lead climb a 7c, particularly a sport route as 7c tends to equate to ridiculous crimps and my finger strength is not great atm due to lack of climbing. (I only get to climb one day every couple of months at the moment)

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Hey Breaks, thanks for answering my question about your climbing abilities. Apparently, nobody else in that league on this board. Well, so be it. But, what about this athletic epiphany, i.e. this (sudden) realization of the essence of what you are doing (see Wikipedia), athletically or, rather, gymnastically. What I am asking is: Have you (i.e. other forum members) never had this moment of Zen when your strength, coordination, sense of balance and concentration suddenly all came together and gave you this glimpse (feeling or insight) of how sweet it can be? Isn’t the desire to experience that moment again and again, what keeps you training? Or is it really only the quest for hypertrophy that keeps you going? Or the fact that it makes you feel good? Don't take me wrong. I am not denigrating those motives. I am just curious what you think it is that keeps you going.

[Erik Sjolin]

It has a couple of times, but the one in most recent memory was close to last Christmas, back when my shoulder wasn't constantly nagging me. I was still feeling quite strong with my HSPUs, and was playing around with some chest rolls when I thought "hey, let's give a Bower a shot." So there, in my tiny little dorm room, I somehow managed to perform a (straddled) Bower press. :shock:

Naturally, me being me, I got really excited and started doing more handstand push up work...and promptly hurt myself. :x

[Kyle Courville]

I love the way you think FritsMB. I don't have too many big epiphanies in life or training. However, I have many small epiphanies that alone stand for nothing, but when layered over each other make "big" epiphanies insignificant. I believe these small epiphanies come out of a desire to understand something that you are passionate on a deeper level. I also believe the desire to know can be conscience or unconscience. Why small epiphanies? Because it makes the journey worth it and it gives deeper appreciation.

Let's say I want to become a great juggler. I practice for four weeks then have a "big" epiphany, and now I am a master juggler and understand all there is to know about juggling. If this would happen I would no longer be a desire or passion for juggling. Therefore, I will no longer juggle, have no reason to juggle, and most of all I will have no appreciation for juggling. However, let's say I practice for years. I practice almost everyday some days go okay and others are struggles, but I improve slowly because of the slightest of things learned from desire to know. These small epiphanies are tiny and insignificant by themselves, but layered together over years will amount to more than a "big" epiphany will ever give. With a few years of daily insignificant epiphanies I will be a master juggler that has a passion, appreciation, and reason to juggle. I would also be much more humbled through the process.

Now to answer your question about my reason for training. On the simplest level I train to look good, feel good, and for greater strength. On the a deeper level my training is a metaphor for life in which I struggle for perfection. I can train for years and become strong and coordinated, but however strong and coordinated I may become I will know that I can achieve greater strength and coordination. Just like in life no matter how much kinder and knowledgeable I am, I know that I am not the most kind or the most knowledgeable. Therefore, on the truest level I train to humble myself.

I hope this is what you are looking for. :wink:

[tmansfield]

Another 5.11(7a/7b) climber here. I only just saw this post as I've been climbing in the alps for the last two weeks.

I know the exact types of moments your talking about, when everything just flows and every muscle works in coordination and each move feels perfectly controlled. I often get it when trade climbing and in my opinon is the ultimate goals of climbing and any kind of physcial training, to have complete control and coordinated movements!

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Yes, that is what I am talking about. And I can still vividly remember the exact place and circumstances (time of day, type of weather, quality of rock/ice, sequence of moves) when I had that kind of experience, even it occurred a long time ago. I don’t climb in the Alps at a high level anymore. So, I want to find out whether I can also have that kind of experience while practicing the basic gymnastic moves, that I am trying to master. They also require a mix of concentration, strength, balance and coordination that I can’t bring about by just going through the motions. Anyway, I am sure that I will find out.

[newguy5000]

Australian grades are different again, and indoor grades differ from outdoor grades depending on what gym you go to. The highest i could lead indoor was a 22 outdoor a 20. Which is a bit below your 5.11 i think. Also depends on what kind of climb, i would put up different numbers depending on what kind of rock / style of climb it was.

I totally get that coordinated feeling you guys are talking about. I think most climbers experience this a lot and is one of the reasons why climbing is such an addictive sport. I did ashtanga yoga for 6 months before i got into climbing and the kind of place i could go to in my head from yoga i also found in climbing. A kind of zen 'no mind' where its like your body moves itself. I enjoy the same kind of dynamic tension in the very basic gymnastic stuff i can do like ring lock outs, wall handstands ect. Where you try relax all the muscles that don't need to be activated and squeeze the ones that do.

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Strangely enough, it never occurred to me that the zen “no mind†experience, that you mention, makes climbing so addictive; even if I was a real climbing addict. I think you are right though. And, yes I agree that you can experience something similar with the very basic gymnastic moves and holds that most of us here practice. Does it help to explain why we like this kind of exercise so much? Also, since I have never had a zen “no mind†experience working out with weights, is it the balancing and playing-with-your-center-of-gravity that sometimes brings about this zen moment when you practice gymnastics? Or, are we over-analyzing this a wee bit? Mr Brady, what do you think?

[newguy5000]

For me it's the creative fun of moving your body through space. I don't get that with weights because you are moving an external object through space and your body is the fixed object. I enjoy weights but they don't give me the same 'feeling' as climbing or gymnastics for this reason. Also, i like the way in gymnastics you can take a handful of moves and string them together however you like for a little work out. You can be creative with it. The idea is to be able to dynamically move your body through a range of movements. I can't wait till i am strong enough to some mini routines!

[Joshua Naterman]

I have definitely had that feeling when deadlifting.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Deadlifting and front squatting give me that feeling. So does playing tennis and hitting people in the head with a defensive hook kick!

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

I see. You are talking about how good it feels to kick your opponent in the head after you lost a game of tennis to him, because you were muscle bound from all the deadlifting and front squatting you did earlier in the morning. No, that is not what I am talking about. That is called revenge, I think. Sweet, but not the same.

[Archbishop o balance]

I see. You are talking about how good it feels to kick your opponent in the head after you lost a game of tennis to him, because you were muscle bound from all the deadlifting and front squatting you did earlier in the morning. No, that is not what I am talking about. That is called revenge, I think. Sweet, but not the same.

Haha, funny Interesting topic =) Agree with Patrick though, on the kicking. Successfully warding off an attack and possibly countering is exhilerating. Although that is usually a result of already being IN zen mode. As far as zen goes, nothing gives me the same feeling of tranquility, focus and zen, basically, that Parkour and capoeira play does.

[Joseff Lea]

I have experienced similar things whilst playing guitar, amazing feeling, I find I can can do almost anything effortlessly even ridiculous riffs and solos that I can usually only just about play. To a lesser extent I experienced the same thing a couple of times whilst sparring which also felt really cool.

Never experienced it with climbing although I usually go bouldering which I would imagine doesn't lend itself as well to getting into that state and I go very infrequantly now and can only climb a 5c on a very good day :oops:

[newguy5000]

Yeah i never got it bouldering either. It's just too damn hard. I got it more on climbs that require a great deal of balance, footwork and finger strength where you have to apply a lot technique and the balance point between hanging on and falling of is very small. Not overhung stuff. Though i do love a thuggy jug haul as well.