Scapula position in HS

[Kyle Devlin]

I understand that a HS should be preformed in a hollow position, but does that mean that the shoulders are protracted as much as possible?

I noticed when I protract it becomes difficult to shrug and there is a stretch on my lats.

[Alessandro Mainente]

gymnastic hs:

-scapula protracted and elevated (feel the shoulders very near to the ears)

handbalancer hs:

-scapula protracted and depressed (also youval told to me that for one handbalance a perfect hollow position is not needed)

[Ian Legrow]

Alex87 has it correct. For handstands i am more focused on the Handbalancing type then the gymnastics type. The Hollow body position helped me understand where my body needed to be in a free standing HS but once i got that discontinued that. I think every Handbalancer has a different take on HS depending on whom you train with. Handbalancer said in one of his posts that in his HS that it feels like there are two tennis balls on the side of his head. Yuri finds the "middle balance" between extending fully and relaxing fully into your shoudlers. However, if your just looking for gymnastics HS then Alex is right.

[Kyle Devlin]

So the difference is elevated and more tense HS for gymnasts and a more relaxed HS for handbalancing? So I well always have to protract?

[Ian Legrow]

Not so black and white. They are both protratcted you will always have to do so. Handbalancing is depressed so your shoudler blades can be flat. Look in mirriors or film yourself to look at your back. You will want to push hard to keep shoulders open and back flat in the beginning, but once those mucles develop solid you won't need to push as hard, though you will still be pushing decently. If you want to do it gymnastic way, you will walways be pushing hard.

[Kyle Devlin]

Thanks Ian. I'll try to take some pictures so I can get some help on judging. I plan on working the handbalancing way, but I still don't fully grasp everything.

[Ian Legrow]

Basically if you look at my avatar picture, my shoulder are open, but you will notice my shoulder blades are still sticking out a bit. My recent youtube videos show my upper back as flatter. That is what you want to strive for. Another thing that might help is you have to keep that flat upper back with your hands 33cm apart for Hand balancing. For Gymnastcs its is usually directly underneath the shoulders. As long as you keep watching yourself via video or mirrors, you will slowly get to understand how you need to flatted your back. its difficults because it definitely something i have not fully perfected yet...then again you never fully perfect handbalancing

[yuri marmerstein]

It all depends on what your goals are. If you are trying to hold a handstand for a long time with little effort you will strive to find a position that will be easier to hold.

Usually in gymnastics there is a lot more pounding, so the extra tension helps to protect the joints. With that said, many gymnastics coaches are pretty clueless when it comes to teaching their kids how to balance on their hands.

[Mikael Kristiansen]

I have never heard of depressing the scapula during handbalancing. Some positions become very very difficult to do as soon as you lose the elevation and push through the trapezius. Especially positions like Figa(the 1 arm where the legs are piked above you) becomes very unstable as soon as you loose the elevation. Same goes for the legs together 1 arm. This is the reason why you see many bboys and self taught people do 1 arms in straddle, as you can allow a more arm bend and balance from the legs, but few who manage legs togheter.

Also doing flags without trying to elevate the scapula usually get the more bboy look to them. I cant remember to have seen any handbalancers who work without shrugging the shoulders, and all the coaches I have worked with really stress this aspect.

The 33 cm thing is probably not an universal rule, but my coach usually make canes in that width. some people will prefer wider or narrower depending on their shoulders

[Kyle Devlin]

Okay.. So I'll elevate and protract while trying to work on the most comfortable way that fits me? Simple stuff!

[Mats Trane]

Are you realy suppose to concentrate on protracting scapula while in the handstand?

Doesn´t that work against opening the shoulders?

[Cole Dano]

Yes but it's not the same as doing a hanging shrug pulls from a bar so it won't feel as protracted at all.

I like to think I'm wrapping the bottom tip of the shoulder blade to the side and pushing it forward, not only does this help open the shoulders, but by wrapping the scaps it forms a cylindrical shape which makes the HS more stable. The analogy is to try to stand a piece of paper on end. If it's flat it falls over, if it's curved it will stand.

[Aaron Griffin]

I like to think I'm wrapping the bottom tip of the shoulder blade to the side and pushing it forward, not only does this help open the shoulders, but by wrapping the scaps it forms a cylindrical shape which makes the HS more stable.

In a similar vein, I think about trying to make my armpits face each other

The analogy is to try to stand a piece of paper on end. If it's flat it falls over, if it's curved it will stand.

I actually snapped this image from a PDF (Gympress?) recently, for posterity:

[yuri marmerstein]

I like to think I'm wrapping the bottom tip of the shoulder blade to the side and pushing it forward, not only does this help open the shoulders, but by wrapping the scaps it forms a cylindrical shape which makes the HS more stable.

In a similar vein, I think about trying to make my armpits face each other

The analogy is to try to stand a piece of paper on end. If it's flat it falls over, if it's curved it will stand.

I actually snapped this image from a PDF (Gympress?) recently, for posterity:

I have never used or taught this method and having just now tried it I don't agree with it. It made me close my shoulders and threw off my line a bit. The only time I would use this method is while doing strength related skills like planche presses where it helps to set the scaps in the right position prior to pressing/lowering.

I also find this takes away from the aesthetic value of a good HS. I keep my scaps pretty neutral, neither protracted or retracted

Also, the logic behind this is a bit flawed. Curling a piece of paper widens the base of support to two dimensions as opposed to one, so this would make sense in a headstand where you put the hands outside of the head to make a triangle.

In a handstand, your base of support remains the same regardless of shoulder position. It is possible to achieve a slight counterbalance by manipulating head position, but it always feels the easiest for me when the shoulders are all the way open as it takes less muscular effort to hold myself up.

But handstand is an individual learning process, so this, like anything is worth trying. If you feel it works, then by all means keep using it.

[yuri marmerstein]

The paper wouldn't fall if it had muscle to control itself...

Indeed. the paper is floppy

You can balance a broomstick on your hand without it bending

I also realized I do this during HSPU as well, before I start to bend my arms for the descent, I close my shoulder angle a bit to allow for the lean.

However, I don't do this during normal hand balance practice as it is beneficial for me to have my shoulders completely open to make balance easier. I perform HSPU and planche separate to my regular balance training(unless maybe at the end of a balance session)

Another thing I thought of is that the hollowing can shift more weight toward the fingers just by distribution, and this can make it a bit easier to balance. However, as I previously stated, you can achieve the same by pulling your head out a bit(but not enough to compromise shoulder angle). Eventually though, you should be able to balance without putting so much weight on the fingers.

[Cole Dano]

Very interesting Yuri. In a way I find it reassuring there are so many options.

In yoga, where hand-balancing is generally comparatively poor the scaps are very protracted with very little elevation. Since, in my yoga days many handstands were connected with doing some sort of backbend, this actually worked well, but admittedly my straight HS was very arched. Making learning a Gymnastic HS very challenging.

In my time studying with Mikael, he never mentioned the protraction under discussion, but very much so fully elevating the scaps. The 'tennis balls in the ears' effect. He and the other Handbalancing teachers I've run into here have all spoke of 'closing the chest' and in part I've interpreted this to mean bringing the collar bones slightly forward and around. I've been thinking shoulder to jaw bone rather than to ear. With my tendency to arch this has been very useful.

As for the illustration, I also agree, I think it's a bit exaggerated. There is a Mas Watanabe video where he goes over the same concept. The actual movement is quite slight, and with it you could see the gymnasts line not only become more vertical, but also more rigid. Looking at your cube video I think you are pretty much doing it. If we are lucky Coach Sommer will weigh in.

[Coach Sommer]

I focus much more on elevation of the scaps, keeping the ribs pulled down (causing the back to flatten) and maintaining proper posterior pelvic tilt during a handstand. Unless I am transitioning into or out of a strength element, I do not overly concern myself with protraction during a handstand.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[yuri marmerstein]

I actually tried this again the other day. It made my shoulders activate a lot more which in some cases can be a good thing, but in this scenario it made the handstand take a lot more effort to hold.

So I concur with my previous statement and coach, not that useful unless for strength skills

[Cole Dano]

Thanks for the input, and Yuri for testing it out some more. I think once I can get back up an my arms, I'll stop thinking about protraction altogether and see if it helps. Old habits are always the hardest to break.