Scapular depression misalignment?

[Eric Heiden]

I've taken some videos of myself for form feedback from myself and have noticed that in XR support and PB support that my right scapula is noticeably lower than my left. With L-sit work on the floor they seem to align eventually (as I lean back onto my arms and look up) but they do "start out" misaligned as I am beginning to push down into the ground. My right shoulder blade is noticeably more sore than the left pretty often. I've considered that maybe my rings don't always align evenly when I adjust the height but I do my best to get them to the same height and I try and alternate facing one direction and then the other when between reps of any given ring exercise. Even if they are slightly uneven the difference in shoulder height is much more pronounced than any difference in height.

Here are some videos of the misalignment in XR support (notice in the 3rd video down that at about 17seconds when I lift my head up and straighten my back a little my left scapula kicks down a bit towards alignment - I don't know what this might mean):

And here are two of my FX lift with crossed legs:

Thoughts on why this is happening? Has anyone dealt with this? I'd appreciate suggestions to fix this imbalance.

Raja suggested on my workout log that I'm having trouble activating the scapular depressors on the left side. He suggested doing trap3/scapular depression work, but I don't know what that would constitute. Any suggestions?

Also - does anybody have any tricks to easily getting their rings even when you adjust the height several times during a workout?

[Eric Heiden]

Or maybe my right scapula is depressing too much? It is pretty tender after certain workouts (like today after doing a few max time XR supports). Of course this could be because it's working overtime because of a weak left scapula. I don't know!

[Cole Dano]

I really don't think it's that, though it may be 'overworking' see as the left side is in a totally different position and not helping at all.

I'd like to see your PB support, my first inclination is to say hold off on XR until you can correct it on PB.

Also notice in your FX lifts that neither scapula is depressing.

Since specificity is important one step is to find a way to deload enough that you can depress, if possible you could even set up a couple of mirrors to see what's happening. Or simply have a friend give feedback. A light touch on the lower tip of the left scapula may be enough to help recognize what you need to do.

A general exercise that could help would be dip shrugs, so you can practice and feel the movement, and in general in all you support/hanging positions try doing some shrugs and retractions/protractions just to get the scaps moving and feel what that is.

I've also had good success myself using bands, overhead pull-downs, and front chest pulls in particular. But the exercises you mentioned are also very good. In general variety also seems to help with shoulder prehab in general, so a mix of assistance exercises can be good.

[Rik de Kort]

Cole is probably right (like usual).

What makes your scapula align in the the FX is that your hands are out evenly from your body. If you look at your ring support, you move the right ring outwards while the left ring stays in and the left scapula stays undepressed. So, show us your PB support!

[Eric Heiden]

I'd like to see your PB support, my first inclination is to say hold off on XR until you can correct it on PB.

Also notice in your FX lifts that neither scapula is depressing.

Should my scapulae depress in FX lifts?

Thanks for the advice guys - I'll record my PB supports at home. Speaking of which - in PB supports I've never been sure which direction my elbows should face - out to my side or back behind me? I think my shoulder position dictates which direction my elbows face, so this would be good to clarify once and for all.

[Rik de Kort]

I'd like to see your PB support, my first inclination is to say hold off on XR until you can correct it on PB.

Also notice in your FX lifts that neither scapula is depressing.

Should my scapulae depress in FX lifts?

Thanks for the advice guys - I'll record my PB supports at home. Speaking of which - in PB supports I've never been sure which direction my elbows should face - out to my side or back behind me? I think my shoulder position dictates which direction my elbows face, so this would be good to clarify once and for all.

If you want to get your feet of the ground in an L-sit without getting your knees to your face, yes.

It also prevents impingement.

[Eric Heiden]

This is interesting - here's a video I forgot I had on the digital coaching forums of my shoulders in a PB support position. At the time I thougth this was due to uneven paralletes but now I'm thinking that even though the paralletes were slightly uneven that real reason my shoulders aren't aligned is the same issue as my XR support - weak scapular depressors.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuzMZEwgTWM

Also I've reread that thread and found this:
 

In the L-sit try to pull your shoulder blades down your back and draw them somewhat together. If possible, straighten the elbows and rotate the elbow so the funny bone points straight back.
...
I think in your case it's going to be mostly about getting those shoulders down. Compression in the midsection is also a factor, but your doing that well compared to the shoulder depression.
Stay on the PBs for a while and occasionally see where you are on the floor. It's quite a bit more taxing.

I should have listened to (read: remembered) your advice in the first place Cole. I'll put up a video of what my PB support looks like ttonight.

[Eric Heiden]

Alright - I just got a chance to record some PB supports and upload them to youtube. They're better - after some time my left scapula fully depresses and is aligned but it seems to be a fickle thing right now. Here are three videos I took in progression:

 

 

 

 

shoulder health aside I am pretty happy about the improvements in physique I see between these and the video from my above post (taken 2.5 months earlier)! That's pretty fun.

[Cole Dano]

Good effort, the last video was showing some real improvement. Notice how you look more vertical as well. It may feel to you as if your chest is lifted or more pushed out. You can see your entire back start to wake up when this happens, and for a few moments your scaps are level, this is a great sign, and just means you need to work at it and get used to it.

Scaps depressed and retracted, think you are trying to hold a pencil between the lower tips of the scaps.

Until you've mastered this, don't worry about the XR support, sure you can play around with it, but don't do it seriously.

[Kit Laughlin]

@ Cannister:

I have watched all the videos; are you right-handed, by the way?

I see L latissimus weakness (compared to the R); and bi-lateral serratus anterior weakness (why the lower border of both scaps wing off the rib-cage—both of these display only when under load. Teres major development is pronounced, too—there must have been a few chin- and pull-ups in your past!

May I recommend that you concentrate on the plank and the reverse plank, with someone watching you and giving you feedback about what to activate? Make sure you actively pull your shoulders down to your hips in both positions (this conscious self-direction can help activate the weaker lat.). Also, make sure in the plank that you are protracting really hard, then go harder; this is the premier serratus activator.

As well, the suggestions to deload the PB supports makes perfect sense to me: you could use bands from your rings for this in any PB support work (hang from rings to under arms, both sides). Deloading will allow stronger symmetrical activation—if you can see what you are doing. Key here is shoulder depress symmetry—even if you have a structural asymmetry, you can overcome it by using visual feedback to ensure that both are level in the supports . If they are, both lats are working similarly (body's weight is being resolved equally by each arm/shoulder).

In my gym, we have a mirror set up in front of one of the ring sets just for this purpose. The way I use it is to very carefully check shoulder position, elbow symmetry, and hand symmetry in the Bulgarian dips; this has reduced my own symmetry in this exercise considerably.

My reason for suggesting this strategy is that your shoulders look more-or-less level, as do your shoulder blades, as you approach the apparatuses, but as soon as you load in the vertical plane, the re-alignment you observe happens.

I agree 100% with Cole's suggestion of leaving the XR supports out for a while, too, until the floor and PB ones are solid. The biggest lesson I learned from Coach's recent seminar was that I had been over-challenging my system at its current strength/stability levels, too; more and more I feel these (the "warm-up" or bodyline series) is the missing part of success on any apparatus. If they are done under supervision, every position is both diagnosis and treatment, as are the videos you have posted. hth, kl

[Eric Heiden]

Thanks for the fantastic responses guys. I've started tripling the amount of PB support in my warmups I used to shoot for 1x60s (and hit it) but now I find that attempting to achieve this proper form I tend to only be able to hit 1x~45 seconds, 1x >35 seconds, 1x >25 seconds or something like that.

I plan on substituting PB supports for XR supports for a long time until I feel I have "graduated." I'll post video progress when I feel I've achieved improvement for more feedback.

Thanks again!

[Cole Dano]

Excellent Cannister! Also wise that you have dropped the times so you can keep good form. You'll benefit from this. Build up to at least 3 x 1 minute but do it methodically.