KStarrett's book is here! (sort of)

[Cole Dano]

Basically that's all I was trying to say.

I'm not a big believer in methods that beat the body into submission, at least not without other more gentle methods in conjunction.

Mostly this is due to -

1) The fact I've done lots of this in the past. I was an early adopter of trigger point therapy, and of course with my yoga background, very intensive stretching etc. using many different tools and tricks. After a number of years, always looking for the newest fancy technique, I came to the conclusion that I was like a dog chasing his tail. This is part of why I don't post a lot on all the rehab threads ect. I just don't believe that many of the methods give lasting results anymore.

2) What finally convinced me that my personal experience matched scientific understanding is reading books like Melzak and Wall's 'The Challenge of Pain'

This is because, in reality, most people doing 'rehab', are doing it for chronic issues, where, the tissue is most likely healed, and the pain is something that is more connected to the nervous system than the tissues.

Any PT or rehab system that doesn't take the Neuro-Matrix into account is IMHO necessarily omitting a very potent piece of the equation and therefore incomplete at best.

http://forwardthinkingpt.com/2012/08/28 ... important/

[Nic Branson]

As usual I'm not going to make a lot of friends here, but take Starrett with a grain of salt and don't overdo it.

On the game front - I'm still waiting to get Mass Effect III, there's always a class, book or gear that seems to take priority...

No enemy here. I pick and choose from his work myself. Prolly won't get his book.

I could be wrong, but I think everyone picks and chooses what they like/think they need from all the available material. I'll get the book even if I don't intend to use all of it religiously. I'll get it because his other stuff has helped me a lot and since it's quite inexpensive for it's size ($30-40). Also because mobility and joint health is always a huge concern for me.

I should say pick and choose because I will adapt something of his more into my methodology then purely what he is doing. So I take his ideas and modify it. There has to be an active component at some point. You absolutely have to address the neurological component. You must for it to be any kind of lasting change.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Cole, sounds like the approach that Kit Laughlin teaches and practices. Still, there does seem to be plenty of times when Starrett's approach, i.e. working with the tissues and stuff like that, is necessary.

Nic, I see what you mean now.

[Joshua Naterman]

Everyone needs to understand that these things are separate and often complimentary.

When you get hurt, your body grows new pain receptors in the area. They don't always go away when you are healed, especially if it was a lingering injury.

Your CNS and the interaction between the CNS and peripheral nerves work together to control how much of your flexibility you have access to, just as it controls how much of your strength you have access to as well.

There are tissue components to both strength and flexibility as well as CNS components, and neither can really be ignored.

Anyone who focuses 100% on either one, or doesn't include work on both aspects, is missing effective methods to get what they want.

There are also simple medical/energetic ways to improve certain things. For example, as I have mentioned many times if you use infrared light to heat up tissues while they heal they will not only heal faster but will also not make new pain receptors, and will very likely (not sure if this next bit is strictly proven in studies yet) allow extra ones to die off. It is also helpful to warm up the tissues before you stretch so that the collagen is more mobile.

One thing that helped me a bit when I was younger was to stretch hot, and stay in the stretched position until I cooled down. I did this with splits a lot after being in the hot tub for 15-20 minutes.

The main point here is that it is important to learn about all the methods there are, or at least the underlying principles, so that you can have a better chance of detecting a previously unknown gap in your program.

[Cole Dano]

Yes Josh. I bring up the Neuro-Matrix because it seems like most PTs are in denial of our current most accurate theory of the cause of pain.

For example, even if there is a pain signal sent from the nociceptors there is no guarantee that it will generate a pain response in the brain, which is where we actually 'feel' the pain. In the same way, if there is no signal being sent from a nociceptors, the brain can still generate pain.

Instead of thinking of this simple and plausible mechanism, our chronic pains are attributed to trigger points, or fascia, bad posture etc...

Now of course doing Gymnastic Strength, Pre-hab is of the utmost importance, we have to have the structural strength and flexibility to do the tasks we are aspiring to.

Injuries do occur, and need to be treated accordingly.

However, if I look at how our understanding of even basic injury treatment has changed over the years. From extreme rest, to RICE, to now no RICE, it's pretty clear that what we know in PT has a ways to go.

Interestingly I would wager that a key reason the no RICE approach works is neurological.

Yes we need to be concerned with tissues, particularly in case of injury, but the pendulum needs to swing a bit more the other way. There is very little regard for the neurological side.

One area of treatment that I find of great interest, though, I know little on the practical side, it taping. I'm convinced it works simply giving the brain a novel input.

Another of interest is Graded Imagery, essentially a method of re-training distorted body maps.

Having been involved with yoga for many years, I always considered it's greatest strength to be getting more in tune with the mind - body connection. When I started, this was the primary focus, however in those days, this was not an accepted idea, and also often made overly mystical. I think due to this, anatomy, alignment, and ideas of perfect posture were brought in. Yoga needed to justify itself.

Now the myo-fascial theory has taken root, a theory with little scientific evidence, and yoga's own roots in the mind have been lost.

There's nothing wrong with knowing alignment, or anatomy, it's vital in many ways, however I don't believe the body is that kind of machine. This is one thing the myo-fascial school has right, they just attribute importance to the wrong thing.

The brain and the skin it's connected to should form the basis. Fascia is more or less a sock. It does help to understand the base structure, but what controls it has been forgotten.

Ironically this is the most fundamental tenet of yoga philosophy, which can be summarized as "it's all in the mind" , and it's in danger of being lost.

So yes, tissue is important, of course it is, but currently it occupies 90% of the 'rehab-space' - that's out of proportion.

Also note, none of this is a condemnation of Starett, or his upcoming book, I might pick it up myself, but as Nick said, if I do, I'll give my own spin and interpretation to the methods and why they work.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's an awesome post.

[Craig Mallett]

Cole,

Awesome post and dead on. I dont think it's in danger of being lost, though. There are still plenty of people around doing this kind of thing, they are just not in the mainstream. Off the top of my head you have these guys:

http://www.bettermovement.org

http://www.ancestralmovement.com

http://www.exuberantanimal.com (as a side note, these guys have an awesome new book called stresscraft, a must read for everyone I think! link on the front page)

and not to mention the thousands upon thousands of "internal" martial artists around who look specifically at working the body with intention and training that to a high degree, although most of those people don't know about or don't care about the importance of their kind of training in regards to other physical fitness systems.

As a PT currently working in a mainstream gym (fitness first), these kind of ideas are definitely not readily available. Even the "yoga" classes (at least the ones I've seen) there are basically just stretchercise, with a bit at the end where they turn the lights off and relax and try to "give themselves a big internal hug" (actual quote from an instructor my gf went to :S) or something similar.

I've been trying to integrate these kind of ideas into my sessions there but the response hasn't been overwhelming, as the people who go there to train already have in their mind that fitness is treadmill + weights + bodypump class. As a result I'll be finishing up there soon and doing my own thing, where I'll be working to hopefully spread these ideas a little more.