Low Energy with Paleo?

[ScottyDugans]

Does anybody know why I have lower energy levels with a paleo diet than when I used to eat like crap? Im finding it hard to keep my energy for training but I was led to believe that paleo would help with this. I spend so much money and time eating and cooking healthy natural foods and it gets me mad when I feel like dirt after all the work.

[Daniel Burnham]

Probably not enough calories... Think about it this way. Most people replace high calorie carb laden foods with vegetables that have almost no energy when they go paleo.

The mainstream paleo diet is not the best option for athletes. Most don't get nearly enough carbs to support their workouts and end up burning muscle and fat to compensate which can lead to a feeling of lethargy and adrenal fatigue.

Post your diet and amounts and maybe we can make a more educated assessment.

[ScottyDugans]

I cant really post my daily diet because it has been changing a lot with fruits and veggies. My calories can range from 1700 to 2500 which sucks because I feel too full all the time with around 2500. My guess for low energy has been because I find it hard to get a lot of "slow" carbs from veggies unless there are massive amounts but I dont have the patience to eat all that. All I know about my diet is that I make sure I get enough protein throughout the day and most of my carbs are from fruit. Also I make sure I have an avocado in the morning and one for dinner as well. I eat 4-5 times a day (2 of which are pre and post workout "snacks"). Should I just bail on the Paleo type eating, Is it really the healthiest for you?

[Daniel Burnham]

How big are you? Thats a pretty low calorie diet. It might help to eat more calorie dense foods like butter and oils as well as some starchy vegetables if you want to keep with the paleo approach.

As for the healthiest, I don't have a good answer for you. I am not nearly educated enough to walk you through the science behind each accurately. Maybe Josh will chime in sometime later. For now I can only give you my experience and that is to eat more carby sources like rice and quinoa especially after workout. In fact I would say eat whatever you want after workout really. You need a ton of energy to rebuild. Personally I choose milk or maltodextrin for my post workout sources and then eat slower sources like rice. I eat a good amount after workout probably 700 calories at least.

However, I have heard of people having success with paleo including Ido portal. In my opinion its not really that beneficial to try to become "fat adapted". I think the biggest takeaway from paleo is to try and eliminate processed foods with lots of preservatives and eat food that is fresh.

[ScottyDugans]

I am 5'7 155.

[Dunte]

Does anybody know why I have lower energy levels with a paleo diet than when I used to eat like crap? Im finding it hard to keep my energy for training but I was led to believe that paleo would help with this. I spend so much money and time eating and cooking healthy natural foods and it gets me mad when I feel like dirt after all the work.

As FutureIsNow and I described in your other post (burning fat with carbs during workout), you lack fat in your diet. Get more fat first, see how you feel for 2 weeks, then add more if needed. If you get to feeling better, then slowly increase carb intake, monitor at 2 weeks, and continue the process.

I don't believe that *any* restrictive dieting plan is the right one for an athlete. Choose to eat high-quality food, choose to eat a lot of it, and don't believe anyone's hype: just listen to your body (and it's telling you something is up right now!).

Toward strength,

Dunte

[ScottyDugans]

2 avocados a day is not enough fat?

[Daniel Burnham]

2 avocados a day is not enough fat?

No way!

[ScottyDugans]

hmm...ok. how many grams of good fats per day are ideal would you say?

[Dunte]

hmm...ok. how many grams of good fats per day are ideal would you say?

Since that will vary dramatically from athlete to athlete (though the general recommendation that 35-50% of your calories come from fat would work well, putting your range in grams from 1/6 to 1/4 of that which you get from protein and carb sources), I recommend this instead:

Eat a good fat at every meal, including the following examples: avocado, dairy products, eggs, walnuts/almonds/cashews/filberts, seeds, fish, slightly-less-lean cuts of meat, vegetable and olive oils, nut butters.

When you have a good fat at every single full meal, monitor how you feel for two weeks.

If you feel awesome, stay at that amount.

If you still feel anything less than awesome, add more.

I have a lot of respect for scientific methods, and my engineering education holds numbers at a high premium, but until you have a ton of experience finding a variety of fats, the numbers don't matter.

[Daniel Burnham]

hmm...ok. how many grams of good fats per day are ideal would you say?

Diets are like politics. People align themselves with one camp and don't usually like to be swayed though they do like to talk about it a lot.

With that said. You need to focus less on the specific number of grams for now and figure out how many calories you need in a day. The best way is to find your resting metabolic rate and how many calories you burn during your workout. Then eat in accordance with your goals (muscle gain, maintenance etc..). Make sure you eat at least the amount that you calculate. After you know how many calories you burn you can start breaking down macronutrients. I for one get plenty of fats without trying too much. I eat seeds and nuts when I am hungry and have nothing else and cook with butter and oils. I also eat quite a bit of red meats and fish. I cant tell you my diet is perfect but I do not have trouble recovering anymore and have been growing steadily since I dropped the paleo attitude. The cool thing is that your body is darn good at compensating to what you eat as long as you dont go crazy.

[Larry Roseman]

However, I have heard of people having success with paleo including Ido portal. In my opinion its not really that beneficial to try to become "fat adapted". I think that our bodies preferentially use glucogenosis for a reason. I think the biggest takeaway from paleo is to try and eliminate processed foods with lots of preservatives and eat food that is fresh.

You make a good point about paelo there. Not possible to always do without becoming a complete nutjob but a worthy goal nonetheless. But I think you mean glycogenolysis, breaking down glycogen to glucose?

Since that will vary dramatically from athlete to athlete (though the general recommendation that 35-50% of your calories come from fat would work well, putting your range in grams from 1/6 to 1/4 of that which you get from protein and carb sources), I recommend this instead:

35% fat might be doable for athletes, but going higher will probably eat into performance over the long haul, it seems to me.

Anyway, paleo man was mostly about walking a lot, occassional fights to the death and then drawing murals about it I guess .

[Daniel Burnham]

You make a good point about paelo there. Not possible to always do without becoming a complete nutjob but a worthy goal nonetheless. But I think you mean glycogenolysis, breaking down glycogen to glucose?

I retract the statement about gluconeogenesis for the time being. One reason being that I misspelled the word and I read up on it to make sure the word I had in my head was correct and saw some info that I didn't remember. I got two things confused. I feel like I learn something new every time I read my class notes .

[ScottyDugans]

35% fat might be doable for athletes, but going higher will probably eat into performance over the long haul, it seems to me.

How so?

Thanks to everyone for responses by the way.

[Larry Roseman]

Because it only leaves 65% for protein and carbs, and eating less than 20% protein and 50% carbs is not going to support

4-5 sessions of intense exercise weekly, muscle growth and recovery - generally speaking. At 50% fat, you're looking at

20% protein and 30% carbs (perhaps) which is even less supportive. It's a rough guide but something to consider.

Paleo dudes were rather gaunt actually, more like the typical marathon runner image that is feared by the masses. I personally don't conform to it, but do eat a lot of lean meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, various grains ("good" and not so good), some legumes and protein powder. Not organic usually but I'm personally leaner and more muscular than ever (despite my age and body type) and haven't been sick in years. I avoid most of the junk and fast foods and mostly eat home cooked meals, with a variety of spices. On a budget, stews and soups are a good way to go.

I agree first go by your feelings and adjust from there. I'm sure you can work something out within a couple of months.

[ScottyDugans]

How do you find out resting metabolic rate?

[Larry Roseman]

http://www.caloriesperhour.com/index_burn.php for example.

It's only an estimate based on calculations and you need to work with it to see if it is too high or low for you.

You can also use ballpark numbers like 12-14 calories per pound.

Generally eating around your maintenance level, at fairly stable levels through the day with strength/high intensity workouts and moderate cardio provding good workout nutrition should should improve body composition over time. It can take a year but in the meantime you will have good energy levels and not feel like you are struggling to lose weight or gain muscle.

[ScottyDugans]

Ok thank you. Also I ate more fat last night and this morning and feel great! I finally dont dread the workout to come.

[Dunte]

Ok thank you. Also I ate more fat last night and this morning and feel great! I finally dont dread the workout to come.

Glad it feels better with that small change. Watch energy levels & BF% for the next couple of weeks, and if things stay on track toward your goal, keep doing it.

[Joshua Naterman]

Ok thank you. Also I ate more fat last night and this morning and feel great! I finally dont dread the workout to come.

Glad it feels better with that small change. Watch energy levels & BF% for the next couple of weeks, and if things stay on track toward your goal, keep doing it.

I thought about quoting the 35-50% comment, but that is misleading. It depends entirely, and I mean entirely, on how active you are and what your sport is.

If you're a GB'er and that's it, then outside of the PWO time you should definitely be getting that kind of fat intake.

If you're also biking 30-45 minutes to work and the same back every day, 5 days a week, or also running an hour a day, you're going to need to treat yourself more like an endurance athlete.

If you are actually an endurance athlete, you pretty much need to be hitting 55-60% carbs and 20-25% fat, with 20% protein (around 2g per kg BW). There is a giant pile of research with elite athletes as well as beginners that shows this diet is essentially always the best for a true endurance athlete.

We burn the majority of our energy during even moderate activities from carbohydrates, while resting metabolism is an average of 60-70% from fat.

When eating Paleo people never factor in the thermic effect of protein, which is .25-.35! That's huge. If you eat 100 calories of protein you're only getting a net of 65-75 calories. That leads to a fairly sizeable deficit all by itself, and 2500 kcal for a 155 guy who's doing WODs and nothing else is just barely breaking even and perhaps not quite hitting that mark.

For those who aren't living a more hardcore endurance lifestyle, higher fat percentages during non PWO hours is a good idea, but be careful: Eat too much at one sitting and you'll feel tired. Fat binds to albumin, which transports serotonin. Lower serotonin = you get tired! It's sort of like a food-induced mini-depression.

Having protein with the meal, and making sure you're eating vegetable matter with each meal so that you get fiber + slower carbs + protein + the fats (from real foods, if affordable) then you should be fine. It can take some time for the body to fully adjust to this.

Peri-workout you really need at least 60% carbs, and preferably quite a bit more. This is when your body needs them the MOST. You always need carbs, but not to the same degree. With strength work you're burning nearly 100% carbs after the first 5 seconds.

Finally: Having so much fruit may have been part of the issue, but it's hard to say. More than anything else, it's about enough calories. Get more cooked starchy carbs after the workout, and the rest of the time do what you have found works well already. You should be fine!

[ScottyDugans]

I am strictly a GBer.

[Larry Roseman]

Initially if you ware not eating enough fat, getting enough is the issue; after that, ensure you are getting enough protein and carbs. Start with the standard recommendations such as 1.5-1.8g/kg protein and 3-5g/kg carbs overall for active people and strength athletes. After that you can pretty much add whatever you like the most to reach your total calories.

[Joshua Naterman]

Initially if you ware not eating enough fat, getting enough is the issue; after that, ensure you are getting enough protein and carbs. Start with the standard recommendations such as 1.5-1.8g/kg protein and 3-5g/kg carbs overall for active people and strength athletes. After that you can pretty much add whatever you like the most to reach your total calories.

That pretty much sums it up.