Latissimus/serratus pull

[Ortprod]

Hey guys,

This might end up being long so I will cut to the chase and then explain. I have a story about how I pulled my rib cage muscles and I am still suffering from it. Any suggestions?

Here is the background:

I have been doing high tension exercises for about 3 years now. I started with body building style routines way back in my teens and then discovered high sets/ low reps. Did the 5x5 thing for a long time and then got into body weight training mixed with kettlebells. After I got my first pullup I started doing them GTG style and did my OAPU and pistols in my 5x5.

Fast forward to a few months ago. I noticed that all my exercises loaded up my lats. I was doing L-sits one day and noticed that my serratus muscles had gotten quite developed as well. I started to employ the "collective minute" volume technique to my L-sits and got away from leg lifts for a bit. Fast forward to a few weeks after this, I started doing heavy kettlebell work (specifically OH presses with a 70lb) for high set low rep scheme. I had made a routine layout and was trying to reach certain goals (max pullup, pistol and dip) and at that point so I know my stress level must have been pretty high. I always warmed up with light dynamic flexibility work for about 20 minutes and closed with 20 minutes of static flexibility when I remembered to (or had the time). Anyway, I was always taught to fire my lats when doing OH work and I always tense as much as I can to train for max tension and strength. My problem is that my lower lat or serratus or external oblique is constantly tight (in this one tiny spot) but it gets aggravated often. I have tried taking a week off (and I even took a week and a half off and felt like a lazy boy ) and I message it when it gets really bad.

Anyone else share a similar story/problem?

Sorry if this has already been covered and I missed it. Thanks for any comments!

[Blairbob]

I thought one of our old group was complaining about being sore in part of spine connecting to his rib but I can't remember who it was.

Muscle imbalance. Basically your lats have gotten too strong. I don't know what the opposite muscle is to the lats.

[thekyloe]

If indeed it is a strength imbalance, then the chest/anterior deltoids would be the opposing muscle groups--dips, pushups, etc. will help balance it out, though I imagine you already knew that.

[Ortprod]

Thanks guys!

Indeed, I am familiar with muscle imbalances but it is nice to have confirmation from as many sources as possible. I worked my back so hard cause I use to bench heavy but hated rows and didn't start doing them for a long time. Looks like its time again to lay off the back for a few months. I have been doing thick bar curls instead of chins (cause even chins were loading up my sides too much). I guess the chain in my body is so used to firing that it's hard for me not to do so. Once every two weeks I hit the rope rows but I still end up doing stuff in my Kb classes that load up my back enough to get some good conditioning. Anyone out there think I should just completely take time off from back specific stuff? Is there anything in my program that I should eliminate till I relax this muscle actively?

I do these things on a normal basis:

KB military press, windmills, overhead squats, cleans, snatches, high pulls, handstand pushups, hanging leg lifts, psuedo planche pushups, rope rows, heavy thickbar deadlifts, rope tricep extensions, bw squats, plyo jumps, and I was doing all the different types of rings pushups and other strength based activities but i guess i can rule those out for a bit. I recently tried some new stuff in light of Coach's circles article too.

Would something like pullovers open up the muscles or just make them tense too much?

Thanks again, you guys are awesome.

[thekyloe]

WIth pullovers, it depends--they used to be my favorite exercise, but they DO stress the serratus/intercostals, so, take it slow, but then again, it could be just what you need to stretch it out. Just be reminded that heavy pullovers work the back, so, if you're trying to avoid working it too hard, don't go too heavy.

[braindx]

If indeed it is a strength imbalance, then the chest/anterior deltoids would be the opposing muscle groups--dips, pushups, etc. will help balance it out, though I imagine you already knew that.

This is incorrect.

Serratus anterior is a protractor of the scapulae. Latissimus doris is responsible for adduction and internal rotation of the humerus (I think a few others as well).

Most pushing exercises such as bench, dips, overhead pressing, even pullups are all internal rotators of the shoulder, work the chest and promote that oh-so-nice hunched forward posture. Since serratus anterior is a protractor of the scapulae, it promotes the caveman posture. Same thing with the lats because of internal rotation.

The couple motions that don't promote as much internal rotation and protraction are most types of horizontal pulling which work the rhomboids and mid-low traps as well as direct internal rotation work. Fixing up the posture by standing tall with shoulder back also works if you can constantly remind yourself to do so.

KB military press Internal, windmills, overhead squats, cleans kind external, snatches kinda external, high pulls Internal, handstand pushups Internal, hanging leg lifts, psuedo planche pushups Internal, rope rows External, heavy thickbar deadlifts Kind of External, rope tricep extensions, bw squats, plyo jumps, and I was doing all the different types of rings pushups Internal and other strength based activities but i guess i can rule those out for a bit. I recently tried some new stuff in light of Coach's circles article too.

As you can see... you have at least 5+ exercises that work internal rotation. And only about 3-4 that work external rotation of your shoulders (and even then oly + DLs aren't going to be a major source of external work). Only one really works scapular retraction (rows) although deadlifts kind of do isometrically.

Basically, if your posture is sucking then its likely you're gonna get pain because of such muscle imbalances.

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I hope you guys weren't talking about doing DB pullovers or something similar on a bench.

Pullovers on a high bar or something like that should be fine. But I'd focus on direct external rotation work and more horizontal rowing. My favorite is either inverted rows or front lever pullup variations.

[Ortprod]

WOW, Braindx, thanks so much for clearing this up. I had definitely considered putting inverted hangs in my routine but there is no doubt that I will be doing them on a normal basis now. I noticed that my posterior delts were lacking in strength too and I figured that it would eventually balance out through front levers and any other move on the rings or p-bars. Front levers, I have found, really make that sensitive spot fire up so I will probably stay away from them but I am going to do rope rows for a long time before going back to extreme lat work.

Thanks again!

[braindx]

WOW, Braindx, thanks so much for clearing this up. I had definitely considered putting inverted hangs in my routine but there is no doubt that I will be doing them on a normal basis now. I noticed that my posterior delts were lacking in strength too and I figured that it would eventually balance out through front levers and any other move on the rings or p-bars. Front levers, I have found, really make that sensitive spot fire up so I will probably stay away from them but I am going to do rope rows for a long time before going back to extreme lat work.

Thanks again!

Yeah, inverted hang pullups are pretty good for working the posterior deltoid as well. These + horizontal pulling + ER work = best way to avoid shoulder problems.

I had to (and still have to) continually avoid this problem myself for about 2-2.5 yrs now since my strength has gone up.