Yaad Mohammad Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Alright, so I do my round-off's and cartwheel's on the right side... but I twist to the left. Is this a problem? Will this give me a disadvantage? Should I just stop and learn to twist to the right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrobatlegend Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I have a friend who is a cheerleader and he is just like you. He can do round off, back handspring, whip, double full on ground. Yet he spins the opposite of what his round off is. He tells me that it is too late for him to re-learn it and he is fine with it, although he said sometimes he wishes his twist was congruent to his round off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaad Mohammad Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 I have a friend who is a cheerleader and he is just like you. He can do round off, back handspring, whip, double full on ground. Yet he spins the opposite of what his round off is.He tells me that it is too late for him to re-learn it and he is fine with it, although he said sometimes he wishes his twist was congruent to his round off.I'm not that far with twisting. I can almost do a standing arabian, but that's the only move I've ever trained. But it still sucks, learning the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Yes negatively impacted skills will be round-off full, round-off arabian stepouts, or round-off one in a half into a step out (you'll be stepping out with your outside leg which will feel pretty akward). In all honesty though if your twist is naturally right the benefits for being able to do those passes do not outweigh the headache of trying to relearn a roundoff or force yourself to twist in the opposite directions. Much more important is that you twist your front and back tumbling in the same direction (safety as well as technical issues). I am also assuming that you are not a gymnast but a tumbler, if you for example train or compete vault you'll run into issue there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaad Mohammad Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 I am a gymnast, so I'll have to re-learn the twisting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Slocum Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Physically speaking, your twisting shouldn't be affected by that. If you're doing a roundoff properly, you shouldn't have any twist by the time you punch. If you're setting properly for a twist, you shouldn't be twisting until after you've punched. So if the opposing twist directions are confusing, or you have lots of trouble with form you might run into some issues, but if you haven't notice any problems so far there's little reason to try to relearn a roundoff/switch twist directions. Also, Azure may be correct about step-out skills: I can't really say because I don't do them. But step-outs aren't an essential part of an FX routine so it's probably not worth tying to relearn twists or roundoffs for that, either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaad Mohammad Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Yeah, but I'm quite new to tumbling, I just got my first round off backflip. I could do them standing, but I never did round offs. I messes around with the backflip and worked up to a standing arabian. It's really bad, so I don't mind relearning the twist. It's the only move I can do with a twist. So I might aswell start over, because I'm not that far. I don't want to regret it later on in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Slocum Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 In that case it's probably not a big deal to relearn the other way. Arabians don't have much in common with other twists, so you haven't got much to lose by starting over.*The set for an arabian is very different than the set for a twisting back flip. With the arabian you try to complete the rotation in the first quarter or so of the flight phase: it's almost as if you punch, do a half turn, and then do a front flip. Whereas for other back-twisting skills (back-half, back full, back-double, etc) you wait a little longer to initiate the twisting so that it happens while you're in the middle of the flight phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexX Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Physically speaking, your twisting shouldn't be affected by that. If you're doing a roundoff properly, you shouldn't have any twist by the time you punch. If you're setting properly for a twist, you shouldn't be twisting until after you've punched.This is incorrect. Yes you shouldn't be twisting until you punch but that doesn't change the fact that the moment from your roundoff is still going to go in the opposite direction as you are lifting your shoulder up in the same way as you'd be doing a right twist if your right hand touches the ground first on your roundoff. No matter how good your set is Round off fulls WILL feel like you are fighting yourself if you twist in the opposite direction of the first hand that touches the ground on your roundoff (left hand first and you twist righty, right hand touches first and you twist left) more so the more twists you do.Here is a good article on twisting: http://www.i-needtoknow.com/gymnastics/technique/barani_confusion.htmlTo the OP I would also not recommend learning standing twisting skills before you learn running ones. As doing so can build bad habits for twisting running tumbling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Slocum Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 This is incorrect. Yes you shouldn't be twisting until you punch but that doesn't change the fact that the moment from your roundoff is still going to go in the opposite direction as you are lifting your shoulder up in the same way as you'd be doing an opposite twist (despite you actually twisting your round off same as your twist). For example a righty roundoff is a left twisting element. On a second note the more twists you do the earlier you will be twisting. Doubles and up will feel extremely awkward.My twisting experience is primarily from a back-handspring, so if you have firsthand experience with twisting from an opposed roundoff, I'm willing to concede the point. I've known a few gymnasts who twisted opposite the direction of their handspring and didn't seem to have any problems, but they could be exceptions.To the OP I would also not recommend learning standing twisting skills before you learn running ones. As doing so can build bad habits for twisting running tumbling.This is good advice. Standing tumbling is more difficult to execute, and while most techniques translate pretty well from running tumbling to standing tumbling, the reverse is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexX Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 My twisting experience is primarily from a back-handspring, so if you have firsthand experience with twisting from an opposed roundoff, I'm willing to concede the point.My round off was left hand first and I was a right twister, it was quite awkward but I struggled with twisting skills to begin with so I am not a good example. I do coach tumbling for female gymnastics and cheer and have ran into 2 girls with twisting issues. One confirmed a similar thing that I felt when I tried Round-off Fulls. The second had different twisting issues (twisting front and back tumbling in opposite directions).I've known a few gymnasts who twisted opposite the direction of their handspring and didn't seem to have any problems, but they could be exceptions.I am assuming you mean roundoff. Here is a video of what I am talking about (I was unable to find any youtube videos of twisting the opposite of your first round off hand). If you do I would like to see them. Pause when she rebounds for her set. Having a perfect set and waiting to twist until you are upside down is a good teaching que when teaching twisting for the first time but that becomes increasingly more difficult when adding additional twists as can be seen in the video. Add to it that during your rebound you'll be fighting to turn with the momentum carrying you in the opposite direction and you can see how the girl in the video would have greatly struggled completing that pass with a different direction twist.The gymnasts that you've known that twisted differently did they compete 3/2 or 2/1 out of a round-off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Slocum Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Pause when she rebounds for her set. Having a perfect set and waiting to twist until you are upside down is a good teaching que when teaching twisting for the first time but that becomes increasingly more difficult when adding additional twists as can be seen in the video. Add to it that during your rebound you'll be fighting to turn with the momentum carrying you in the opposite direction and you can see how the girl in the video would have greatly struggled completing that pass with a different direction twist.I don't wait to be upside-down before twisting, but I definitely wait until I've left the ground.The gymnasts that you've known that twisted differently did they compete 3/2 or 2/1 out of a round-off?I believe one had a double-full but I can't remember if it was out of a round-off or handspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexX Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I don't wait to be upside-down before twisting, but I definitely wait until I've left the ground.I believe one had a double-full but I can't remember if it was out of a round-off or handspring.I would just like to add that none of those skills are impossible to do the "other" way. Just awkward. I've seen full ins on non-spring floor out of what I thought was the most technically incorrect roundoffs and back-handsprings that I have seen (self taught cheer tumblers) but they complete them and land. I've seen people twist in two opposite directions with no problem during a pass, few things are impossible but that's doing stuff the hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtumbler Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think I have to agree with jfslocum. I am one who cartwheels right and twists left and it was never a problem for me. If the technique on the round off is correct, your body will be square to the direction of travel shortly after your feet pass vertical in the round off and the rebound will be perfectly square with no residual rotation. Only if you are already starting to set your twist on the roundoff snap down would I this be a problem. If this were not the case, everyone would have a lingering "drift" rotation when they did a simple roundoff bound up. You might see this lingering drift rotation in people who use more of a side-by-side cartwheel hand placemet in their roundoff (ie fail to reach around with the second hand and square their shoulders and hips), and thus are still finishing the direction change while snapping down, causing the shoulders to not be square. I don't have any video of me doing roundoff double full, but I did find one on youtube and a roundoff triple full (2-3/4 acutally) on grass, albeit with sloppy form. He cartwheels right and twist left, just like me. (Last pass of video) And here is Svetlana Khorkina doing a (right) roundoff (left) 2-1/2 twist, front tuck full for her first pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexX Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think I have to agree with jfslocum. I am one who cartwheels right and twists left and it was never a problem for me. If the technique on the round off is correct, your body will be square to the direction of travel shortly after your feet pass vertical in the round off and the rebound will be perfectly square with no residual rotation. Only if you are already starting to set your twist on the roundoff snap down would I this be a problem. If this were not the case, everyone would have a lingering "drift" rotation when they did a simple roundoff bound up. You might see this lingering drift rotation in people who use more of a side-by-side cartwheel hand placemet in their roundoff (ie fail to reach around with the second hand and square their shoulders and hips), and thus are still finishing the direction change while snapping down, causing the shoulders to not be square. I don't have any video of me doing roundoff double full, but I did find one on youtube and a roundoff triple full (2-3/4 acutally) on grass, albeit with sloppy form. He cartwheels right and twist left, just like me. (Last pass of video) And here is Svetlana Khorkina doing a (right) roundoff (left) 2-1/2 twist, front tuck full for her first pass. This is interesting, do you feel any sort of difference between your round-off full and round-bhs-full? or do they feel completely the same to you? Like I said I've only had one gymnasts that twisted in a different direction (with round-off) and she said it felt awkward so my experience is limited to that. Going by yours and Jfslocus's teammates experiences it seems indeed that people don't feel it is as awkward as I had originally believed. As for the videos, like I said I've seen A LOT of things done the "textbook" wrong way with nearly perfect form (clearly not in the backyard video). Like twisting connecting tumbling elements in two different directions, the gymnast was not even aware she was doing that until we pointed it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtumbler Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Well, it's been a while since I threw those, but I never gave it much thought. Everything always starts with a straight bound up set first, so the entry never seemed to matter to me. Like I said, my round off bound up doesn't have any lingering rotation - I'm done with the 180 rotation as I go over my hands in the round off and my shoulders and hips are square on the snap down. At that point it is just bounding up strongly with raised arms and lifted chest. The angular momentum for the twist comes not from any lingering axial rotation from the round off, but from a translation of a portion of your end-over-end rotation into axial rotation. For a split second as you take off, there is a slight arch in the upper back of the lift with the arms set a little wide. The slight arch is immediately shifted to a side arch in the direction of your twist. (Think of forcing yourself to roll on the ground by alternating hollow and arches and not using your arms or legs, like a wiggling fish) This maneuver is extremely quick and starts a slow axial rotation. The body quickly straightens back out and the widely set arms pull in, which decreases the moment of inertia of the body and accelerates the twist. Here is Svetlana with the round off entry: And here is me with a handspring entry: You can see that quick "reach-arch-twist-straighten" liftoff in both. You know, watching these in slow motion, it just occurred to me that when you are doing a right handed round off, you are actually twisting left (counter clockwise) because the right shoulder is coming forward and the left shoulder is going back with respect to your longitudinal axis. So twisting opposite to the side of your round off makes sense! Now interestingly, I could go either way on the Arabian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Seeing as you are a beginner and do not possess some twisting on the order of a 5/2, just go re-learn twisting on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaad Mohammad Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Seeing as you are a beginner and do not possess some twisting on the order of a 5/2, just go re-learn twisting on the other side. Yes, you're right. I've already started twisting the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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