Importance Of Scapula Position

[Ping Blekkboks]

Hello.

 

I wonder about 1 thing:

 

Take the plank hold. In my sports career, I was always taught to have an neutral upper back; neither full retraction or protraction. The lower back stays flat. But here at GB I am taught to round the upper back and go for full protraction of the shoulder blades. What is the benefits of this hollow position opposed to the neutral position?

 

Thanks.

[Joshua Slocum]

As the above two posters have said, it is in preparation for more difficult exercises. The planche and maltese are both held with protracted shoulders and rounded back. The back lever, cross and inverted cross are also commonly performed with protracted shoulders.

[Ping Blekkboks]

I understand.

 

What is the muscular benefits of hollow? I understand you need to be strong in hollow for gymnastic positions, but what are the exact muscular advantages of holding say, a planche, in the protracted position and not retracted?

 

Thanks.

[Brian Li]

  On 12/8/2012 at 2:44 PM, menging said:

I understand.

 

What is the muscular benefits of hollow? I understand you need to be strong in hollow for gymnastic positions, but what are the exact muscular advantages of holding say, a planche, in the protracted position and not retracted?

 

Thanks.

You can exert more force since the prime movers will have a stable base to push from and it also protects the shoulders from injury in the long run along with building a strong serratus anterior. Being retracted in a planche or maltese would make it much harder to push and hold.

[Kyle Devlin]

Its the complex team of muscles that make up the upper body. Protraction for the plank is just prepping and strengthening the serratus anterior for protraction in harder strength positions and movements.

The reasoning behind it is because the scapula IS upper body strength. And the proper positioning is how to use that upper body strength. One thing that gymnastics does, is develop maximum upper body strength.

[George Navarro]

Lack of serratus anterior work will also eventually lead to a winging scapula, which is a no-no.

[Ping Blekkboks]

Really good info! Thanks!

 

A friend of mine has severe winged scapula. I will tell him to do a lot of serratus anterior work!

 

Thanks for the help.

[Joshua Naterman]

This is all great info, excellent thread and responses!

 

Now for one more thing to complete the puzzle:

 

The fundamental reason for protracted scapula,  from a joint mechanics perspective, is that it points the glenoid fossa a bit towards the ground.

 

 

 

As you can see, the head of the humerus (upper arm bone) is off to the side and several times larger than the glenoid fossa (what we call the shoulder socket).

 

It's a lot like a golf ball on a tee: The socket is small, so the ball (humeral head) needs to stay pretty well centered on the socket for the shoulder to be stable and hard to injure.

 

When you are retracted in a planche-type position, you are looking at a very unstable position because the force vector is not pointing at the center of the socket but instead at the edge or slightly outside the edge.

 

Protraction moves the socket so that it is directly in line with the overall direction of the applied force in planche.

 

In other words, protraction lines everything up so that the shoulder remains stable, and stability is required for strength as well as injury prevention.

 

In this case, the planche, you need to be protracted. To a large degree, the more protracted you are the better.

[Ping Blekkboks]

Thank you Joshua for the informative post! I will be sure to read it more than once.

 

Question:

 

Instead of placing the pressure sideways on the ball joint, you place it more (not completely) through the center?

 

One more question:

 

Is it correct that in front lever training, you should have squeezing the shoulder blades together ?

 

I don't know why, but it feels more stable that way.

 

Hehe, let me know if its annoying with so much questions.

 

Thanks. 

[Joshua Naterman]

Your first question:

 

No, don't focus on the ball. Focus on the socket.

 

You see how the ball is covered with cartilage all over? That's so that the socket (glenoid fossa) can move around on the ball during closed kinetic chain movement (think push ups, planche, handstand presses, anything where your body moves through space and your hands do not).

 

You will generally want the socket centered on the line of force generated by the muscles, which is going to be an upward angle as seen from the ball.

 

In other words, the shoulder is more stable in planche when the ball is looking up into the socket, compared to looking to the side into the socket, because the entire body is now sitting on top of the ball, and braced by direct bone-on-bone pressure (through articular cartilage, which is made for that)  instead of being held to the side of the ball and only braced by shoulder ligaments, the relatively easy to damage labrum, and elastic muscle tissues.

 

I don't know if that helps.

 

 

 

If anyone is wondering, the "widening" of the shoulders is the activation of the rear delts, infraspinatus,  teres minor, and teres major. "Widening" is a great mental cue, so use it.

[Ping Blekkboks]

Joshua: Thanks for the clarification. I will be sure to read this too more than once.

 

Zach: Like trying to make the wide lats bodybuilder pose?

[alec_ar]

Quick question, is the glenoid fossa coated with cartilage?

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes. The labrum is actually cartilage as well, but it has very little bony support because it sticks out into the joint space to provide significant amounts of joint depth.

 

That depth is what gives us a substantial amount of shoulder stability, which is why it is so important not to injure the labrum

[Joshua Naterman]

Please remember what Zach said! I tend to grab my bar or rings, depending on what I'm doing, and feel the "widening" before I start to load my body, and I then keep it while moving through the exercises.

 

Hard to describe properly, but it's a very good idea to learn how to use your muscles.

[alec_ar]

Hmmm. Good to know. I tend to worry about the health and safety of my glenohumeral joint-area.

[Ping Blekkboks]

I will remember to widen my shoulders.

 

I read some about the labrum being geneticly different. It varies in shape and some people may not have it at all. 

 

Makes me wonder. I have never had a shoulder injury, despite lapping over 30 miles a week in swimming for many years. I must have a good labrum structure, hehe!

 

Thanks for all the answers!

[stranger]

As you are discussing scapula position in planche ant front lever, a quick question: what should be the position of humerus during each of these moves? Should we strive for external rotation?

[Joshua Naterman]

Not specifically, no. If you externally rotate hard during protraction, you can dislocate the joint anteriorly and flirt with a labral tear.

 

For planche:

 

You're going to want your inner elbow pointing somewhere towards the ground, from the middle point between your hands to directly down into the ground. Hand position will influence this, but within that context you'll want to do what feels most "correct." With fingers forward, the inner elbow is going to point somewhat inwards, closer to that middle point. With fingers backwards, the elbows are going to be pointing more straight down into the ground.

 

If you're in a parallel bar grip orientation, it's going to be somewhere between those two.

 

It doesn't get more specific than that, each person will be slightly different.

 

FL: I don't focus on any particular internal or external rotation. Everything is pretty neutral in that respect, but I just can't give any specifics because I don't focus on that. The half-way point between your best external rotation and your best internal rotation (with the scapula NOT MOVING during the two rotations) is a good place to start.

[alec_ar]

Interesting post. I'm going to keep your first paragraph in mind Josh, I tend to train Maltese with external rotation. As for the post above, personally I find it difficult to externally rotate AND protract. Maybe that's just me.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's because your body doesn't want to get hurt

[Cody Hahn]

@ Joshua,

 

You have mentioned how the humerus must sit securely on (or in depending on how you describe it) the shoulder socket to enable not only maximum strength but maximum health as well.

 

Something I have wondered about for a while and am trying to figure out on my own is how to apply this same concept to the pelvic girdle and femur. How can we train our body to position the femur correctly in the hip socket when we do anything from single leg squatting, to natural leg curl, to sprinting, to jumping, to deadlifting, etc.

 

Also, when a person performs things such as an isometric split hold, or a high side kick for example, in my mind ( and to clarify this is just opinion as I don't have much experience with this yet) it seems that the more advanced a person becomes in abilities such as these, the more the femur will tend to slightly pull out of the socket. It seems as if a person would need to also train the ability to suck the femur into the socket to ensure a safety margin for long term health. Is there any credence to this? Does it make any sense? What should a person do to train their hips (like so many are trying to train and correct their shoulder girdles)?

 

Thanks.