Scapula Position For Rows?

[crossfic]

What position should your scapula be in for bw rows, bent over rows etc...

[Rik de Kort]

It's a dynamic exercise, so the scapula should be moving!

 

Rows are a retraction exercise, so you want them to be protracted at the bottom and then retract them until they're all the way retracted at the top.

[Nic Branson]

Down and back. Retract them and keep them in the sockets.

[crossfic]

Still confused as both these comment contradict :/

[Matus Michalicka]

I agree with Rik's comment.

 

You should be retracted and depressed. However between reps you should "deadhang" and therefore your scapula will protract. (Similar to pull ups - you want to be retracted and depressed, but between reps when you deadhang you scapula will elevate)

[Joshua Slocum]

  On 1/30/2013 at 7:30 PM, spyro7800 said:

I agree with Rik's comment.

 

You should be retracted and depressed. However between reps you should "deadhang" and therefore your scapula will protract. (Similar to pull ups - you want to be retracted and depressed, but between reps when you deadhang you scapula will elevate)

This is the way that I do them too. I begin in a dead hang at the bottom. Then I retract, then I do the row. At the bottom I relax the retraction, thus going back to a head-hang. Then I start over again. 

[Joseff Lea]

As I've understood it from the little reading I've done:

during near maximal efforts you want to keep your shoulder stable and "locked" in the same position during the whole rep. This means you will be engaging the muscles that you use to retract and depress your shoulder but your shoulder shouldn't actually move. Much like in a full front lever you should try and retract your shoulder but actually retracting is nearly impossible, you are just engaging the muscles.

Actively retracting should only be done for prehab and rehab purposes, to learn proper movement patterns etc. Actively retracting like this during maximal efforts can be detrimental to shoulder stability

As I said I'm not entierly sure about this but a number of videos on shoulder health that I have seen support my claim. Would be very useful to me if someone with some knowledge on this subject could support/refute the claim I've made here

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

  On 1/30/2013 at 8:16 PM, spinelli said:

(...) Would be very useful to me if someone with some knowledge on this subject could support/refute the claim I've made here

 

Indeed 

[Joshua Naterman]

Depends on what you want from them.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always (since the 6 month mark here at GB) been able to perform scapular rows in flat tuck FL, but there's no way I could do that in full lay FL.

 

In a purely explosive, power motion you are going to end up starting protracted and then retract as you pull back powerfully. You'll still end up being pretty retracted for most of the motion, and end up staying there for nearly the entire motion.

 

 

My biggest concern is to make sure that you are retracting strongly in a fairly neutral elevation as you pull back. I don't worry about the "down" cue, simply because I find that this can lead to downward rotation and impingement. Just don't shrug up towards your ears and you'll be fine.

 

TO figure out where your scaps belong, in terms of elevation or depression, try the following:

 

1) Stand in front of mirror

2) Shrug all the way up, as high as you can, without moving the spine or head.

3) Note this shoulder position

4) Shrug all the way DOWN, meaning try to touch the floor with your hands, again without moving the spine or the head.

5) Note this shoulder position

6) Find the shoulder elevation that represents the mid-point between steps 2 and 4. This may take a few shrugs.

7) Remember whatever shoulder position this is, because this is your true neutral elevation.

 

For some of you, that will feel like you're shrugging up. For others, it will feel like depressing the scaps. For others, it will feel perfectly natural. For me, personally, it feels natural on the left and a little like shrugging up slightly on the right.

 

This is where you will start your row, and typically this is where you will stay. I actually notice significantly better trap activation, and zero shoulder problems, in this position. Quite a bit better than when I used to try the whole "down and back" thing.

 

As with all physical movements, YMMV, but I believe that this is the fundamental position to learn for building a stable shoulder girdle.

 

This can also help IMMENSELY with postural corrections, especially when you do the same thing for protraction and retraction (find the true midpoint). That tends to be where your resting posture SHOULD be.

[Robbie Coker]

Should you try to maintain upward rotation of the scapula throughout the entire movement?

[Joshua Naterman]

  On 1/31/2013 at 2:11 PM, Robbie Coker said:

Should you try to maintain upward rotation of the scapula throughout the entire movement?

You won't have to think about that. The biggest thing to avoid is forward tilt, which is when your shoulders appear to "roll forward" at the end of the concentric phase of a row. For most people this shouldn't be an issue, but is always a good thing to be aware of.

 

If this happens, unilateral doorway stretches and using a somewhat lighter weight for the row itself is usually a quick path to successful correction..

 

If you have Kit's materials, there are a number of other stretches you can do listed.

[Cody Hahn]

  On 1/31/2013 at 12:03 PM, Joshua Naterman said:

Depends on what you want from them.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always (since the 6 month mark here at GB) been able to perform scapular rows in flat tuck FL, but there's no way I could do that in full lay FL.

 

In a purely explosive, power motion you are going to end up starting protracted and then retract as you pull back powerfully. You'll still end up being pretty retracted for most of the motion, and end up staying there for nearly the entire motion.

 

 

My biggest concern is to make sure that you are retracting strongly in a fairly neutral elevation as you pull back. I don't worry about the "down" cue, simply because I find that this can lead to downward rotation and impingement. Just don't shrug up towards your ears and you'll be fine.

 

TO figure out where your scaps belong, in terms of elevation or depression, try the following:

 

1) Stand in front of mirror

2) Shrug all the way up, as high as you can, without moving the spine or head.

3) Note this shoulder position

4) Shrug all the way DOWN, meaning try to touch the floor with your hands, again without moving the spine or the head.

5) Note this shoulder position

6) Find the shoulder elevation that represents the mid-point between steps 2 and 4. This may take a few shrugs.

7) Remember whatever shoulder position this is, because this is your true neutral elevation.

 

For some of you, that will feel like you're shrugging up. For others, it will feel like depressing the scaps. For others, it will feel perfectly natural. For me, personally, it feels natural on the left and a little like shrugging up slightly on the right.

 

This is where you will start your row, and typically this is where you will stay. I actually notice significantly better trap activation, and zero shoulder problems, in this position. Quite a bit better than when I used to try the whole "down and back" thing.

 

As with all physical movements, YMMV, but I believe that this is the fundamental position to learn for building a stable shoulder girdle.

 

This can also help IMMENSELY with postural corrections, especially when you do the same thing for protraction and retraction (find the true midpoint). That tends to be where your resting posture SHOULD be.

What does YMMV mean?

[Rik de Kort]

  On 1/31/2013 at 3:28 PM, Cody H said:

What does YMMV mean?

Your mileage may vary.

 

That took all of 5 seconds to look up. I counted.

[Nic Branson]

Ok some clarification. Shoulder pulled into their sockets are far safer from injury and in a strong position. For most progressive work this will be your ideal position. There will always be some minor unpacking during movement that will require resetting your scaps each reps. You should not be fully dead-hanging during this kind of activity. This become a bigger issue for things like bent over rows where it can really throw your form off.

 

During warm up sets or sets focused on scap mobility / work you would focus on mobilizing them. I use the down cue as this leads most people to pull them to a neutral level, I have never once personally had anyone pull them too far downward when under load. Just my experience. If you find it uncomfortable you are most likely focusing more on the down then the back. Back is primary. Down is about being concious that you are not shrugging them upwards.

[crossfic]

Great replys! kept my scapula locked back which stopped them from rolling forward and this solved my pains also realsised my left should rose up a bit so retracted it and this also has helped me